North Korea Mega Thread

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

I guess the Trump misadministration's official position is, that war-war (and nuke-nuke) is better than jaw-jaw.

On the silver lining side, launching a nuclear war against North Korea that turns into a complete disaster has at least a small chance of getting him not only booted out of the White House, but also put on trial for war crimes. (I wouldn't normally think such a thing could happen to any US president, no matter how feckless. But let's not underestimate Trump's ability to piss powerful people off.)

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Contrary to you worry warts, I see this as saying, unless China's gonna do something, there's no point in passing yet another toothless resolution. It's not a call for war-war, but yawn-yawn.

I would agree, except for

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That sounds to me like a rejection of further diplomacy.  But hey, maybe the Trump administration is just lying some more, and maybe the North Korean government knows that.

Thanks Republicans for giving us a situation where our hope for peace is that the North Korean government correctly and rationally determines that the President of the United States is a crazed liar.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Contrary to you worry warts, I see this as saying, unless China's gonna do something, there's no point in passing yet another toothless resolution. It's not a call for war-war, but yawn-yawn.

I would agree, except for

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That sounds to me like a rejection of further diplomacy. 

No, it's a rejection of more pointless yammering at the UN that wouldn't even involve talking with North Korea. Imagine that, the UN Ambassador focusing on what the UN can and cannot do? Right now, passing yet another toothless resolution at the UN does nothing.

Could you point to even the tiniest sign that "master dealmaker Trump" (roflmao) will do, or can do, anything besides starting a war or throw tantrums at China for not getting him a bottlemagicallly fixing North Korea right now.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Contrary to you worry warts, I see this as saying, unless China's gonna do something, there's no point in passing yet another toothless resolution. It's not a call for war-war, but yawn-yawn.

I would agree, except for

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That sounds to me like a rejection of further diplomacy. 

No, it's a rejection of more pointless yammering at the UN that wouldn't even involve talking with North Korea. Imagine that, the UN Ambassador focusing on what the UN can and cannot do? Right now, passing yet another toothless resolution at the UN does nothing.

Could you point to even the tiniest sign that "master dealmaker Trump" (roflmao) will do, or can do, anything besides starting a war or throw tantrums at China for not getting him a bottlemagicallly fixing North Korea right now.

Why should we try to do anything? The U.S. doesn't have the ability to accomplish anything worthwhile on its own. If anything is to be accomplished it'll require Chinese involvement and that'll happen when Xi thinks it's in China's own interests. I share your doubts that Trump can convince Xi of that, but I don't share the belief you share with Trump that there is something we can do on our own.

I certainly don't mean to say that the US should act unilaterally on North Korea's nuclear programs, diplomatically or militarily.

I think that rejecting future diplomacy, or even saying our government will reject all future diplomacy, is stupid beyond words.  (And if you don't think that's what Trump's words mean, it's only because you know he's liar.)

I also think that seeing Trump - who has long been portrayed by his promoters, including himself as a master negotiator - crying that China hasn't magically fixed North Korea for him is both pathetic and a masterpiece of black comedy.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Here's something that'll lighten up the mood (it'll do the exact opposite):

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/31/politics/north-korea-ejection-test-submarine-activity/index.html

So now even their sub tech is getting better.

I have to admit, that article really is terrifying:

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Given Trump's track record, the only question is how bad he'll fumble it.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

We need to attack before LA is a glass crater.

Just like how we won the Cold War, right?

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Trump said during the campaign he would be willing to negotiate with Un. Un said back in February or so he was willing to send diplomats to work with the United States. Why is this happening?

He was lying, as usual. Trump has no skill as a negotiator. He's just an ignorant, immature bully with a big ego and a talent for BS when he gets caught.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

"There is a military option to destroy North Korea's (missile) program and North Korea itself," Graham said on NBC's "Today" show. "If there's going to be a war to stop them, it will be over there. If thousands die, they're going to die over there, they're not going to die here and (President Donald Trump) told me that to my face."
He continued: "I'm saying (military options are) inevitable if North Korea continues."
But, he added, "You can stop North Korea militarily or diplomatically. I prefer the diplomatic approach."

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/01/politics/lindsey-graham-north-korea-donald-trump-white-house/index.html

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[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Here's something that'll lighten up the mood (it'll do the exact opposite):

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/31/politics/north-korea-ejection-test-submarine-activity/index.html

So now even their sub tech is getting better.

I have to admit, that article really is terrifying:

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Given Trump's track record, the only question is how bad he'll fumble it.

It shows how low the bar has gotten when "not getting into nuclear war" would be one of this administration's top achievements.

Something that needs to be remembered if there is a North Korean strike on the US or our Allies:
the Trump maladministration has constantly assured the public that nothing bad can possibly happen with Trump on the job while simultaneously constantly flirting with war on the Korean Peninsula. A nuclear attack on the US would be the most damning demonstration of Trump's utter incompetence imaginable.

In the event of such a horrible act of war, there can be little doubt that Trump woould attempt to leverage it to his personal political advantage. That must not happen. If the United States is attacked by North Korea, in the face of Trump's assurances and provocations then under such circumstances he would need to be held as culpable as the Kim regime.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Beet, what more would you want Trump to do, capitulate? The offer to suspend the nuclear testing program in exchange for suspending exercises with North Korea is worthless. It doesn't accomplish any U.S. goal and the North would be able to end it at will, whenver they're ready to do more tests.

What exactly is "capitulation", Ernest? Capitulation would be allowing the North to overrun the South and unify Korea under its rule. Suspending exercises costs nothing, not even a single cent, nor does offering to talk. Is merely talking with them so horrific that getting major cities nuked is preferable to it? I don't understand that reasoning.

I don't understand your reasoning that refusing to go along with Kim III's propaganda offensive must inevitably lead to a military offensive. Suspending exercises gains nothing and gives Kim the ability to boast he forced the United States to back down. The Trump Administration has far too few people at State to waste them in meaningless (to us, tho not Kim) talks that won't go anywhere.

Suspending exercises means that the (paranoid, with some some justification) rulers of North Korea don't need to constantly be worrying about a surprise US/South Korea invasion, and don't need to decide between using their giant military machine to harvest crops or keep them prepared for a surprise attack. Ideally, this will make them less paranoid, which seems like a good change for a disconnected regime with a horrible record that has FOUR WMD programs.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Can anyone weigh in on if this is normal or ominous? Seems ominous to me...

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/892863090349531136

Seems more likely related to this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/world/asia/north-korea-american-tourists.html

If they're banning Americans from visiting, wanting all Americans out by (nearly) the same date to fit with that without being a telltale for war. Which isn't to say Trump wouldn't start a war over Labor Day weekend.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

The Security Council has approved the US-proposed sanctions by unanimous vote.

Wow. This is a very strong step by the Security Council, that will hurt the North Korean regime badly without being militarily threatening. If Trump continues to whine about China (or Russia) on North Korea after this, he's going to look terrible.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

I'm going to end up a hawk on this. War just seems inevitable at this point.

At which point by the nonsensical and criminal logic of "preventative war" the North Koreans are justified in nuclear strikes on US bases in order to "stop us from attacking them". The "preventative war" idiocy started by Bush has got to stop. Call it by it's proper name: plotting war crimes.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Maybe Democrats will seize the opportunity and pretend to be the anti-war party again.

If they do this, they have very little to stand on. NK is a very real and present danger to East Asia and the US. It's not Iraq or tribal Taliban in Afghan. If they go dovish on NK, they will be seen as placaters in the worst way, even more than the mid to late 2000s.

Oh, it is very much Iraq. A nasty regime, with scary weapons that represent a potential future threat lied into an immediate danger because the Republican White House wants a war. The GOP and Trump are too stupid to even come up with a new playbook. But why should they? It seems to be working again just fine.

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Anyone who tries this: Clinton, Bush, Obama, or Trump, should end up the same place Goering did.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Maybe Democrats will seize the opportunity and pretend to be the anti-war party again.

If they do this, they have very little to stand on. NK is a very real and present danger to East Asia and the US. It's not Iraq or tribal Taliban in Afghan. If they go dovish on NK, they will be seen as placaters in the worst way, even more than the mid to late 2000s.

No one wants to be responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of South Koreans and endanger the 30,000 troops we have stationed there.

No one wants that but you must always be ready to prepare for that outcome. Other than that, it is a fast track to Asian proliferation which opens up a new can of worms.

The neocons and warmongers have been making the same damn argument for twenty-five years. It was a BS excuse for war in 1992, in 2002, in 2012 and it's still bloodthirsty stupidity now.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Its far too late to be planning a preventive war. As much as we hate it, the status quo seems like the best option. Let North Korea wall themselves off with nukes if it saves Seoul IMO.

Realistically, this seems like the most likely option imo. The US has lived with a hostile power having the capability to launch a nuclear weapon on the US mainland before, and North Korea is never going to launch a missile against any other country because they know that their regime won't survive the war. I don't see why some here are so ready for the US to start a war... 

Why Trump wants to is pretty obvious:

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

From 2013:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/04/12/world/asia/north-korea-questions.html

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These threats of pre-emptive strikes happened under Obama as well. Nothing new.

Except that Obama was, whatever his other faults, sane.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

From 2013:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/04/12/world/asia/north-korea-questions.html

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These threats of pre-emptive strikes happened under Obama as well. Nothing new.

We know that.

So why the hell is Trump engaging them now?

Trump's Razor: because he's a petty fool who is barely qualified to play President of the United States in a SyFy made-for-tv movie.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Could everyone please take a deep breath and calm down?  The world is not on the brink of nuclear war.  Yes, sabers are being rattled.  That's happened many times before, and it's a long way from actual warfare.  We've been much, much closer to the brink than this.

(FWIW: I remember air raid drills in school during the Cuban Missile Crisis; my school actually had its own shelter.)

Absolutely. Why, for example:

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It's almost as though the so-called President is a stupid and out-of-touch bloodthirsty madman who needs to be removed from office as soon as the GOP manages to find it's own rear end

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Anyways Trump attempt to look tough has failed, NK has called his bluff so much for those 'balls' he has.

Yeah... I think you've got it. President Trump (Republican) is a bully, and like all bullies,  a coward as well. He's also lazy, much more inclined to stunts than any sort of real work. This is really just him spinning his usual line of BS trying to look like the toughest guy in the room.

While there's a small chance he'll stumble into something massively deadly, that doesn't go up or down based on something as insubstantial as what he says. I'm pretty sure even Kim and his regime know that Trump is full of BS.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Can we all agree that it is not one party's fault for North Korea's growing nuclear program? Better action should have been taken for years now.

It's certainly way past time where pointing fingers for past mistakes is useful.

At the same time I'm also unconvinced by the incredible jump in North Korea's supposed threat from "tiny crazy country with pathetic but potentially dangerous WMD/missile programs" to "OMG War Nau or We All Die!"

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Kinda sad story but reports are out of S.Korea that the media is giving this little coverage. Apparently they are treating Trunp like they do with N. Korea and just tune out what is being said

Do you think South Korea is in denial while continuing to dismiss the threats. Or do they believe they aren't serious?

Given his record, why would anyone think Trump was serious?

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

A lot of the posts on here are wrong from a tactical perspective. Btw, the effort to remove the nuclear capability from Trump (CINC) is blatantly unconstitutional and wrong from a strategic standpoint. If on the offchance that DC is nuked, Trump would have advance warning and evac/get in the PEOC, but many in Congress would not have that option. The president MUST ALWAYS have an unlimited, unquestioned authority over the military for rapid response in times of crisis, Trump included, even as I disagree with Trump on many things he still is CINC.

Lies and nonsense.

No one is seriously talking about removing the President's ability to respond to an attack on the United States. They just want to stop him from starting a war, particularly a nuclear one.

The Constitution assigns the power to make war to Congress. That Trump is such a terrible President that Congress feels the need to  flex its authority on this field is all because of Trump and the Republicans who elected him.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Posted 1 hour ago

 Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump  1 hour ago
 My first order as President was to renovate and modernize our nuclear arsenal. It is now far stronger and more powerful than ever before....

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump  1 hour ago
 ...Hopefully we will never have to use this power, but there will never be a time that we are not the most powerful nation in the world!

He sounds more like Kim every day.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

A lot of the posts on here are wrong from a tactical perspective. Btw, the effort to remove the nuclear capability from Trump (CINC) is blatantly unconstitutional and wrong from a strategic standpoint. If on the offchance that DC is nuked, Trump would have advance warning and evac/get in the PEOC, but many in Congress would not have that option. The president MUST ALWAYS have an unlimited, unquestioned authority over the military for rapid response in times of crisis, Trump included, even as I disagree with Trump on many things he still is CINC.

Lies and nonsense.

No one is seriously talking about removing the President's ability to respond to an attack on the United States. They just want to stop him from starting a war, particularly a nuclear one.

The Constitution assigns the power to make war to Congress. That Trump is such a terrible President that Congress feels the need to  flex its authority on this field is all because of Trump and the Republicans who elected him.

The Constitution was written in a time when no one could ever dream of a war in which cities could be destroyed from opposite sides of the planet within 30 minutes, including vaporizing all members of Congress along with it. That is why the decision to launch is with the president and not Congress, whether the president is good, bad, or in between, that doesn't matter to the military, and the military will obey and order from the CINC no matter the party or the petty stuff Trump has done. In military matters, CINC is the ultimate authority and the only authority for the authorization of a nuclear strike.

Lies and blind assertions do not make reality, or reflect the law.

Just because you  cannot understand the difference between responding to an attack and starting one, or because you want Trump to be able to murder millions on a whim, does not mean that he has any Constitutional authority to do so or that Congress cannot restrain him.

If there's a silver lining to having a stupid, insane, and incompetent President threatening war crimes, it is that it really may push Congress to muzzle his ability for mass murder. And by extension, restrict all future Presidents, too.