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Question: In your opinion, which of these countries would you not judge someone negatively for displaying their symbols?
Nazi Germany   -5 (2.3%)
Confederate States of America   -13 (6.1%)
Soviet Union   -18 (8.5%)
Yugoslavia   -27 (12.7%)
Other Eastern European communist countries   -22 (10.3%)
Fascist Italy   -12 (5.6%)
Francoist Spain   -9 (4.2%)
British India   -19 (8.9%)
Khmer Rouge   -3 (1.4%)
Zaire   -12 (5.6%)
Apartheid South Africa   -7 (3.3%)
German Empire   -23 (10.8%)
Ottoman Empire   -19 (8.9%)
Japanese Empire   -12 (5.6%)
None of these are acceptable   -12 (5.6%)
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Total Voters: 52

Author Topic: Which of these (former) countries' symbols is it acceptable to display?  (Read 828 times)
Crumpets
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« on: August 12, 2017, 10:03:28 pm »
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In light of the rally in Charlottesville being inspired by the removal of Confederate symbols, I'm curious which of these countries with less-than-stellar reputations you would not judge someone negatively for displaying.

I'm also curious, since I have some Eastern bloc memorabilia. Despite the awful systems in countries like Ceausescu's Romania or Stalin's USSR, it doesn't seem like buying a button with a red star or a pocket watch with a hammer and sickle on it has the same sort of emotional effect on people that a swastika or a Confederate flag would. Plus, I think a lot of propaganda can have some amazing art value and tell you a lot about the country that used it. So, I feel like I'm at least a bit more torn about the whole Confederate statues issue than other liberals, even though I think on balance the symbols should go, or at least be relegated to a garden outside some visitor center at a battlefield or something.
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2017, 10:35:31 pm »
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Ottoman Empire since they treated their citizens better then many of the nations that replaced them did .
The WW1 German empire because  because they weren't much different from the other European powers .


Everything else I would view that person negatively  .
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2017, 10:37:09 pm »
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Ottoman Empire since they treated their citizens better then many of the nations that replaced them did .
The WW1 German empire because  because they weren't much different from the other European powers .


Everything else I would view that person negatively  .

Say it with me: Armenian Genocide.
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2017, 11:00:53 pm »
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Yugoslavia is the least worst option.

I would never own anything w/ symbols from any of these places, though.
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2017, 11:02:30 pm »
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I would proudly fly the Confederate, British Indian or South African flags.
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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2017, 01:58:36 am »
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It really depends on what you mean by displaying. Proudly flying them in the garden? Probably wouldn't be too disturbed with Ottoman, Yugoslavian, German Empire, British India and maybe Zaire. But just owning things with their symbols? I mean, I have a Russian hat with the hammer and sickle and I sure don't support the Soviet Union. Anything other than Nazi Germany, which is an absolute taboo, and maybe the Confederacy, Khmer Rogue and Nazi allies would be fine in that regard.
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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2017, 02:34:12 am »
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Fascist Italy's flag was the flag of the Kingdom of Italy, unless I am mistaking it for another and so it was used from 1861 until 1946 when the Monarchy was abolished. It is basically the same flag as today, with the coat of arms of the royal family in the center.


And it comes down to the kind of display. There are many circumstances where displaying historical flags is of a historical benefit like on a map or a TV documentary. Like someone else said if you fly any of these in a manner that indicates support for it like on your house or whatever, then you have to own both the good and the bad that goes with it.
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2017, 08:11:32 am »
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People should display any flag they want
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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2017, 11:58:26 am »
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The Nazi, Confederate, and South African flags are the ones I have a problem with, because they're the ones currently being used as symbols of racist groups. Someone flying the Ottoman flag or the flag of Zaire in their yard would be weird but wouldn't provoke the same reaction (if I even recognized it).
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2017, 12:37:47 pm »
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Ottoman Empire since they treated their citizens better then many of the nations that replaced them did .
The WW1 German empire because  because they weren't much different from the other European powers .


Everything else I would view that person negatively  .

Say it with me: Armenian Genocide.

alright never mind then
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2017, 01:07:38 pm »
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The Nazi, Confederate, and South African flags are the ones I have a problem with, because they're the ones currently being used as symbols of racist groups. Someone flying the Ottoman flag or the flag of Zaire in their yard would be weird but wouldn't provoke the same reaction (if I even recognized it).
How could you not recognize the Ottoman flag??
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« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2017, 01:52:14 pm »
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Voted Confederate States of America, Yugoslavia, other Eastern bloc countries, fascist Italy, British India, German Empire, Ottoman Empire, and Japanese Empire.

Flying the confederate flag in public isn't really a good idea, but plenty of people who fly it aren't racists and are just doing it for regional pride, so I wouldn't necessarily assume they were racists even if I don't think they should be doing it.

The Yugoslavian flag was just the normal Serbian flag with a red Communist star added right? Don't really see what the problem would be with that. Not sure on the connotation of other Eastern bloc flags, but I don't even think people really fly those anymore. Someone who would want to wold just fly the hammer and sickle instead.

The Mussolini era Italian flag was already the Italian flag before he took over and was just the "Kingdom of Italy" flag, so I also don't see the problem.

Not familiar with the history of the use of British India's flag, but I've never seen white supremacists use it or anything. I would assume that if it's used today it's by Anglo-Indians or people who had some kind of personal/family connection to the Raj.

The WWI era German flag has no connection to Nazis and was just the pre Weimar Republic German flag.

The Ottoman flag is the same as the current Turkish flag, right? (red flag with white star and crescent)

I'm assuming by "Japanese Empire Flag" you just mean the Japanese naval jack, which is still in use today and has just become associated with WWII due to war movies and such.

As for the ones I said were not acceptable-

Nazis, Khmer Rouge, and Apartheid South Africa seem pretty obvious.

Unless its in some kind of comedic Soviet kitsch context I would consider the Soviet hammer and sickle pretty unacceptable. It's taboo in a lot of Eastern Europe.

The Francoist Spanish flag is just the Spanish flag with a fascist eagle crest over the top of it. Can't imagine why anyone would fly that except out of allegiance to fascism.

Not super familiar with the context of the Zaire flag but I don't know why anyone would fly it unless they were a Mobutu supporter. 
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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2017, 01:56:24 pm »
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I would proudly fly the Confederate, British Indian or South African flags.

y tho

Seriously, what is you attachment to RSA or the British Raj?
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« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2017, 04:28:02 pm »
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I would proudly fly the Confederate, British Indian or South African flags.

y tho

Seriously, what is you attachment to RSA or the British Raj?

Mostly to troll. Although I doubt waving the flag of British India would evoke many emotions outside the subcontinent.
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« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2017, 04:32:26 pm »
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How about Rhodesia?

Personally if someone flew any of these flags I will wonder about their loyalties & motivations for admiring failed collectivist states
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« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2017, 05:39:33 pm »
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I don't mind about Yugoslavia because I think it's understandable why someone may have nostalgia for it even though it was Communist.

I don't mind the Germany Imperial one either because I think it looks better than the current German flag despite some of its connotations and the German Empire was not particularly awful in comparison to most empires throughout history.

The rest I would judge negatively for.

Especially about the Ottoman flag because I am ethnically Greek Cypriot so I see the effects of them in my own family, and of course the Nazis for the holocaust and Soviets for gulag ect.
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« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2017, 07:19:00 pm »
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If I saw someone with a swastika, I would not go near them.

I've seen confederate flags on the back of trucks and I associate it with "Redneck Pride", but I would wonder what they really thought about slavery and black people.

You can't erase history- so we can remove all of these Confederate monuments and every last trace of the old South, but it will always be part of our history as a country.

At Gettysburg, where it is very solemn remembrance of both sides that lost lives, there are Confederate symbols everywhere but it is not viewed as an endorsement of slavery, but as historical artifact.

There's oppression in a lot of symbols, depending on your point of view, someone's bound to be offended by something or other, and you can't bulldoze them away.

"Gone with the Wind" for example is a movie that might one day be shown in a theater and there may be a crowd of protestors because it completely glamorizes the Confederacy, the Old South, and slavery... that would be silly to me, one can watch GWTW and by the end of the movie still abhor slavery and racism and still look at it as a cinematic masterpiece.

There might be a day when people will be offended that concentration camps are open to the public and people go there almost as if they are tourists at a historical site, but they made that choice to open them to future generations, not to glorify the Holocaust, but to keep the lessons of the horrors of it alive so it never happens again.

It's a very touchy subject and if I was black, I probably would not want to even talk to someone that had a Confederate flag on their car.

Swastika in general or do you mean the Nazi Flag , because the Hindu Swastika and the Nazi Swastika mean totally different things as in Hinduism it means peace and well being .
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« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2017, 08:03:17 pm »
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if I saw someone wearing the Nazi flag or a Nazi armband that would be someone I would not want to be around.  I generally believe in legalizing a maximum amount of free speech, including offensive speech, but I don't think I would personally want to associate with someone who supported Nazi ideology. 

There was an incident years ago of a young boy wearing a Nazi uniform for Halloween, but that did not go over well when the boy went to Jewish homes looking for candy.
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« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2017, 05:55:40 pm »
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I wonder why far-right groups don't use the symbols of Francoist Spain and the Falange more often, given that they were actually successful, unlike the Confederates and the Nazis. Far-leftists use Spanish Republican slogans and imagery quite often.
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« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2017, 12:58:49 am »
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You forgot the flag of the Fatherland Front during Austrofascism (1930s):

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« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2017, 10:00:59 am »
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I wonder why far-right groups don't use the symbols of Francoist Spain and the Falange more often, given that they were actually successful, unlike the Confederates and the Nazis. Far-leftists use Spanish Republican slogans and imagery quite often.

Both were heart-breakingly successful. Sad
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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2017, 05:13:53 pm »
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Interesting to note how Atlas dems prefer Stalin to Robert E Lee. I oppose the flying of any communist flags, nazi flags, confederate flags, and mostly oppose Americans flying other nations flags at all. In defense of confederate flag flyers, most have been told their whole lives that it stands for "southern pride" or "being a rebel" rather than armed rebellion to destroy the United States to preserve racial slavery. I'm not saying it's okay, but it's mostly flown out of Ignorance rather than hate.
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« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2017, 05:17:04 pm »
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As a general rule, waving the colors of any oppressive regime is bad.
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« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2017, 05:23:09 pm »
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Soviet Union, British India, German Empire, Ottoman Empire and Japanese Empire.
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« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2017, 05:23:52 pm »
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Only Yugoslavia.
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