Abortion

[Gustaf]

Nobody does, whatever we all of us like to believe about ourselves.

No, of course not, but we can be reasonably close to our patry on issues, or very far away..most people are the first, wouldn't youi say?

[minionofmidas]

Yes, but what's the cause and what's the effect here?

[Gustaf]

Yes, but what's the cause and what's the effect here?

You mean do we choose the party b/c of it's stands or does the party choose it stands after it's supporters?

[minionofmidas]

Or do we adopt our peer group's stands on a host of (though not necessarily all) issues?

[Gustaf]

Or do we adopt our peer group's stands on a host of (though not necessarily all) issues?

If you do you do, if you don't you don't...or do you be peer group mean other people than the fellow party members?

[Beet]

Human instinct does not define any part of morality. It's in certain people's instincts to kill others- and they truly believe what they did was just. It's in certain people's instinct to rape women... and they believe what they did was just, but it's obviously not.

I don't think you're going to agree with me no matter what I say, but at least I can say that CS Lewis, Locke, and Rousseau agree with me here, even if they wouldn't agree with my position. Even Jesus appeals to law found out by instinct when he tells people not to do what they would not have done to them. You haven't said where you think morality comes from, but this is something that can be debated until the sky falls, so theres no point in doing it.

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Have it your way. You totally ignored what I said in favor of blunt assertion that you've already made, but okay...

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Dude, learn to READ. I already qualified my statement by saying "If it really is no more than a mass of cells..." obviously you dont agree with that, but it was a qualification which if true, would make my statement true. And since the verity of the qualification is the matter being contended, the side that says a fetus is not always more than a mass of cells does have a substantial policy interest in doing so. And I obviously already agree with what you said (assuming by body you meant person), as should have been apparent to you throughout our entire conversation. Second of all, even if it is a person, the decision to have a child, to concieve in the first place, is huge.

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So do you accept that life doesn't begin until consciousness does? Believe me there are very smart neurologists who think real consciousness doesn't happen until the 28-30 week period; including that brain waves aren't present until 26 weeks.

[Brambila]

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When Christ told us to turn the other cheek, it was our instinct not to. That's why Christ told us to do it. I don't know much about Locke and Rousseau, and don't know what Cs Lewis says about instinct. Since I'm pretty ignorant about this, I'll assume that you're correct. If morality were human instinct, then every single culture on earth would have the same morality, or at least similar ones. However, this is not the case. The Huns and Christian Romans had different morals; the Muslims and Hindus have different morals; the Zulus and British had different morals. The list goes on.

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No I didn't. I understood you. I'm telling you that it doesn't matter how big the frequencies of brianwaves are- a brainwave doesn't mean a mind.

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My apologies. But I still don't understand your argument- was it an argument at all? For your second statement, yes, I understand that a decision to have a child is a big one... but once she's pregnant, she already made that decision.

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No, I don't. Once again, if that were the case, infants born in comas could be aborted, even though the infant will arrive out of the coma.

[Emsworth]

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But she may not, of course, have made that decision herself. (Forgive me, for I have not the energy to read the entire thread and determine if you have or have not addressed such an issue

[Brambila]

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Of course not... but let's say that she gave birth to that child... should she be allowed to kill it?

[migrendel]

An aspect overlooked in this clash of absolutes is one of balance. When thinking of this as a moral question, perhaps one should weigh the disadvantages of criminalizing pregnancy termination.

If we did this, we would violate the true birthright of the child, to be born into a world that accepts and nurtures them. The alternative is child abuse, neglect, or years of one's life in the foster care system. We can tell women what to do with their fertility, but we must accept that we have destabilized the very foundation of their civil rights, and have denied them fair treatment under the law. We can take this choice away from poor women, but we then allow for child starvation and an intense wanting for the basic needs of life. We will also see the butchery of illegal abortion once again.

The reason why I have never been convinced by the pro-life people is because I am far too aware of the consequences of making abortion a crime.

[Emsworth]

Of course not... but let's say that she gave birth to that child... should she be allowed to kill it?

Once the child has undergone birth, it is a separate life, independent of the parent. Within the womb, I do not believe it to constitute a separate being. I am of the opinion that its right to remain within the mother is equivalent to the right of the appendix to do the same.

[Brambila]

Migrendel, many poor women steal from stores. When they steal, they go to jail. If they are restricted from stealing, they and their children could die. Does that mean stealing should be legal? Of course not.

I don't know about you but I'd rather live in an abusive home then not live at all.

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If the fetus isn't a seperate being, and part of the mother, that would mean the mother has two blood types, and if the fetus was a boy, the mother would have a penis. Obviously this isn't the case.

[migrendel]

Under conventional conditions, stealing is illegal. But because of mens rea, and a situational understanding of the law, those women surely cannot be punished. That is just a consideration of mitigating circumstances. The law should not be blind to the point of visiting injustice upon those who have least.

[Brambila]

okay, minus the mother or child dying.

[Vincent]

It's 2004, abortion shouldn't be an issue.  

People need to stop judging other people.  

None of you are ever going to convince the other of your point of view.

I will probably never think abortion is murder.  Nor would I ever want it outlawed.  I wouldn't want someone I got pregnant having an abortion but it wouldn't be my choice.

I doubt anyone here really loses sleep at night thinking about all the fetuses being aborted...  especially not someone like Brambilla who obviously doesn't care about other human life after seeing how he has bashed gays up and down... now he somehow cares about saving fetuses...

BS, this issue has been so politicized it's pathetic...  Is anyone here going to tell me they lose any sleep at night because of abortion?  Lets be real.

True that the pro-lifer probably dosent loose sleep over abortion, yet at the same time I hear liberals talking about all of the people of the world living in hunger or dying of starvation, do they really loose sleep over that? They cant personally feel the pain of thoose going hungry, just like nobody can really be personaly hurt by the death of a fetus.

[Gustaf]

Scarily, I find myself in some sort of agreement with Brambilla...*BIG SHUDDER AND A GENERAL SENSE OF DIRTINESS* I don't think ALL morals are defined by natural instinct. Homosexulaity is a great example of this. The biologically driven homophobia is not worthy of a civilized society. Just like a lot of other practises.

[CTguy]

It's 2004, abortion shouldn't be an issue.  

People need to stop judging other people.  

None of you are ever going to convince the other of your point of view.

I will probably never think abortion is murder.  Nor would I ever want it outlawed.  I wouldn't want someone I got pregnant having an abortion but it wouldn't be my choice.

I doubt anyone here really loses sleep at night thinking about all the fetuses being aborted...  especially not someone like Brambilla who obviously doesn't care about other human life after seeing how he has bashed gays up and down... now he somehow cares about saving fetuses...

BS, this issue has been so politicized it's pathetic...  Is anyone here going to tell me they lose any sleep at night because of abortion?  Lets be real.

True that the pro-lifer probably dosent loose sleep over abortion, yet at the same time I hear liberals talking about all of the people of the world living in hunger or dying of starvation, do they really loose sleep over that? They cant personally feel the pain of thoose going hungry, just like nobody can really be personaly hurt by the death of a fetus.

I don't hear many liberals talking about world-hunger... I do hear a lot of right-wingers whining about abortion as if they were personally dying...  then they go back to their nice little homes in suburban kansas and don't think about the issue until the next temper tantrum rally.

[migrendel]

I, too, am a little confused about the tendency of some among us to reduce homosexuality to an entirely biological state. I believe that human behavior is a product of genetics and a complex relationship with one's environment. To reduce any type of behavior to a chemical imperative denies its complexity.

I do however feel it is only a difference. People can accept the fact that others vary from them, as they would accept a person with blue eyes or left-handedness. It only becomes an issue when some among us make it one.

[12th Doctor]

No, but it was about the Department of Defense.

Hey, Mark, I aked Kozak if he had ever writen a book on the Defense Deptartment.  he said he had.  It must be him.  I just read your thing about James MacPherson (I missed it before)  THat's awesome.

[CTguy]

I, too, am a little confused about the tendency of some among us to reduce homosexuality to an entirely biological state. I believe that human behavior is a product of genetics and a complex relationship with one's environment. To reduce any type of behavior to a chemical imperative denies its complexity.

I do however feel it is only a difference. People can accept the fact that others vary from them, as they would accept a person with blue eyes or left-handedness. It only becomes an issue when some among us make it one.

I think society will always need a scapegoat.  I wonder what it will be in 50 years...  maybe left-handed people...  I hope it's not people with blue eyes for my own sake... hahaha.

[Brambila]

CTguy doesn't understand. Pro-lifers look at every single abortion as the murder of an innocent child- equally as much as people in the holocaust, or babies being murdered in southern Sudan. It's sickening.

Migrendel, you probably missed my reply. It's the last one on the previous page. I really want to know what you think. (no sarcasm)

[migrendel]

I believe that society necessitates the lack of culpability of poor women in crime under certain circumstances. If poverty is eliminated, this exception shall no longer need be.

I also believe that society necessitates the right of women to make their own reproductive decisions. Since the relationship between physical autonomy and liberty shall never change, this will always be.

[Brambila]

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So because a woman's poor- and she has the capability to get a job- she should be allowed to steal? Why should the owner of a store suffer? Is it his fault the woman is poor? In the same way, why should the fetus suffer- is it the child's fault that his or her mother is poor?

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It's only been legal for about 30 years in all states.

[migrendel]

I see no reason why small business owners should be treated as the victims of manifest economic injustice.

I also do not see why we should return to a past of legal error.

[12th Doctor]

I see no reason why small business owners should be treated as the victims of manifest economic injustice.

I also do not see why we should return to a past of legal error.

So if I steal from a guy who is probably middle-class (as most small business owners are) then the owner is not a victim?