Turkey's new school year: Evolution out, jihadism in for elementary school kids

[Tender Branson]

"In Turkey, education was never secular. There were already obligatory classes on religion. But now, the introduction of the concept of jihad is just horrendous."

From September Turkey will have a new education curriculum and this 38-year-old mother is among many parents who are worried. The changes affect first, fifth- and ninth-grade students, and the main controversy surrounds the exclusion of the theory of evolution from secondary education.

"In classes, nine- and 10-year-old students have been memorising prayers from the Koran. I believe religious education should be given at home, not in schools," said the woman, who did not want to be named, due to security concerns.

Other controversial changes include shortening the time allocated to studying the life of Turkey's secularist founder Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, an introduction to the concept of jihad and more classes on religion.

(...)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41003105

Religion needs to be removed from school classes, not increased.

But that's what you get when you elect and re-elect a Muslim fascist as PM and President.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

wonderful to see children in Turkey are spending less time learning about that trashbag Kemal Ataturk.

[Santander]

wonderful to see children in Turkey are spending less time learning about that trashbag Kemal Ataturk.

So you believe children should be taught to memorize prayers in American public schools?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

wonderful to see children in Turkey are spending less time learning about that trashbag Kemal Ataturk.

So you believe children should be taught to memorize prayers in American public schools?

Turkey is an overwhelmingly Muslim country. As long as non-Muslims can opt out of having to learn the Quran and associated Muslim things, I don't see a problem.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

wonderful to see children in Turkey are spending less time learning about that trashbag Kemal Ataturk.

So you believe children should be taught to memorize prayers in American public schools?

Turkey is an overwhelmingly Muslim country. As long as non-Muslims can opt out of having to learn the Quran and associated Muslim things, I don't see a problem.

I come from a country with religion lessons in schools, which you can "opt out", but despite our society being more liberal than most of Turkey, there's silent pressure. I was the only one not attending in my class.

[America Needs R'hllor]

wonderful to see children in Turkey are spending less time learning about that trashbag Kemal Ataturk.

So you believe children should be taught to memorize prayers in American public schools?

Turkey is an overwhelmingly Muslim country. As long as non-Muslims can opt out of having to learn the Quran and associated Muslim things, I don't see a problem.

So you'd be fine with teaching Jihad to children just because "muh majority"? And oppressing scientific facts like evolution is ok too? Come on, Erdogan is absolutely atrocious, don't try to defend him just because you have something against Ataturk.

[DC Al Fine]

wonderful to see children in Turkey are spending less time learning about that trashbag Kemal Ataturk.

So you believe children should be taught to memorize prayers in American public schools?

Turkey is an overwhelmingly Muslim country. As long as non-Muslims can opt out of having to learn the Quran and associated Muslim things, I don't see a problem.

So you'd be fine with teaching Jihad to children just because "muh majority"? And oppressing scientific facts like evolution is ok too? Come on, Erdogan is absolutely atrocious, don't try to defend him just because you have something against Ataturk.

Frankly, parents ought to have the right to determine what their children learn unless there is a major overriding reason for the state to interfere. Otherwise we get this creepy Orwellian vibe of the state 'owning' children. Frankly, evolution isn't anywhere near important enough to intervene. If the bulk of parents don't want their children learning it the state should respect their wishes.

[dead0man]

Frankly, parents ought to have the right to determine what their children learn unless there is a major overriding reason for the state to interfere. Otherwise we get this creepy Orwellian vibe of the state 'owning' children. Frankly, evolution isn't anywhere near important enough to intervene. If the bulk of parents don't want their children learning it the state should respect their wishes.

While I generally agree with the first part, I don't think I can agree on the second.  Sure, for sh**tty authoritarian hell holes like Turkey in 2017 it probably don't matter too much if they learn proper science or not, but what about Alabama in the 70s?....probably now too sadly.

[NewYorkExpress]

Erdogan is a jihadist running a Democracy, hence why this decision was made.

[DC Al Fine]

Frankly, parents ought to have the right to determine what their children learn unless there is a major overriding reason for the state to interfere. Otherwise we get this creepy Orwellian vibe of the state 'owning' children. Frankly, evolution isn't anywhere near important enough to intervene. If the bulk of parents don't want their children learning it the state should respect their wishes.

While I generally agree with the first part, I don't think I can agree on the second.  Sure, for sh**tty authoritarian hell holes like Turkey in 2017 it probably don't matter too much if they learn proper science or not, but what about Alabama in the 70s?....probably now too sadly.

See, this is where progressives lose me. Proponents of this argument usually assume that it is self-evident that evolution is so important and rarely explain why parental opposition to it must be ignored.

[dead0man]

It's not THAT important for a regular human to know. Neither is Jupiter, Calculus or the fact that Earth is shaped like a sphere, but we should still teach our children these things no matter what the parents believe.

If it's THAT important to the parents, I have no problem with them taking their kids out of public school and educating them the way they see fit.  I just think public schools should teach science, even the parts that disagree with the predominant (or otherwise) religion.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

wonderful to see children in Turkey are spending less time learning about that trashbag Kemal Ataturk.

So you believe children should be taught to memorize prayers in American public schools?

Turkey is an overwhelmingly Muslim country. As long as non-Muslims can opt out of having to learn the Quran and associated Muslim things, I don't see a problem.

So you'd be fine with teaching Jihad to children just because "muh majority"? And oppressing scientific facts like evolution is ok too? Come on, Erdogan is absolutely atrocious, don't try to defend him just because you have something against Ataturk.

First of all, evolution theory as we generally know it is just that - a theory. Teaching it in public schools as fact without presenting any alternatives is giving it legitimacy it doesn't deserve. Also, you saying that this is 'teaching Jihad to children' betrays your lack of understanding of what Jihad is.
http://islamicsupremecouncil.org/understanding-islam/legal-rulings/5-jihad-a-misunderstood-concept-from-islam.html?start=9

[dead0man]

(for the hundreth time)

a scientific theory does not mean the same as the regular word theory...from the wiki

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Evolution is a fact.  As much of a fact as jet engines, Heliocentrism or the physics that make your computer work.  Science is a thousand times more sure of it than they are that human pollution is going to cause large scale changes in regional climates in the future.  Evolution happened and is still happening and will always happen naturally.  That doesn't mean there is no god and that shouldn't make your religion wrong.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

(for the hundreth time)

a scientific theory does not mean the same as the regular word theory...from the wiki

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Evolution is a fact.  As much of a fact as jet engines, Heliocentrism or the physics that make your computer work.  Science is a thousand times more sure of it than they are that human pollution is going to cause large scale changes in regional climates in the future.  Evolution happened and is still happening and will always happen naturally.  That doesn't mean there is no god and that shouldn't make your religion wrong.

I think evolution still happened to some extent and animals obviously haven't been the same since the beginning of time. But I think god served as a big guiding hand. Present day evolution theories generally deny that possibility out of hand.

[dead0man]

Science denies a lot about your religion, like a virgin birth is impossible, people don't (tend to) come back from dead, walk around for a few weeks, then fly away.  You can put your personal spin on the ability to walk on water, but you can't put your personal spin on Evolution?

I understand there are people that give you sh**t for it, but ignore those bastards.  It's acceptable to believe in God and science, these things are not mutually exclusive no matter how much extremists from both camps might scream that they are.

[DavidB.]

TimTurner has always been an outright Erdogan supporter. Ready for Hillary and progress in the current year for the West, but supportive of Islamism in the Muslim world.

I don't particularly mind Turkish schools becoming less secular, but introducing the concept of jihadism as a cornerstone of children's education is bound to lead to blowback of a rather literal type, and that's something nobody should wish on the Turkish people.

[Figueira]

Frankly, parents ought to have the right to determine what their children learn unless there is a major overriding reason for the state to interfere. Otherwise we get this creepy Orwellian vibe of the state 'owning' children. Frankly, evolution isn't anywhere near important enough to intervene. If the bulk of parents don't want their children learning it the state should respect their wishes.

While I generally agree with the first part, I don't think I can agree on the second.  Sure, for sh**tty authoritarian hell holes like Turkey in 2017 it probably don't matter too much if they learn proper science or not, but what about Alabama in the 70s?....probably now too sadly.

See, this is where progressives lose me. Proponents of this argument usually assume that it is self-evident that evolution is so important and rarely explain why parental opposition to it must be ignored.

A lot of modern medicine, and understanding of climate change is dependent upon evolution. Also it's incredibly unfair to discriminate against children for having ignorant parents.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Science denies a lot about your religion, like a virgin birth is impossible, people don't (tend to) come back from dead, walk around for a few weeks, then fly away.  You can put your personal spin on the ability to walk on water, but you can't put your personal spin on Evolution?

I understand there are people that give you sh**t for it, but ignore those bastards.  It's acceptable to believe in God and science, these things are not mutually exclusive no matter how much extremists from both camps might scream that they are.

I don't believe science and religion are incompatible. In fact they are perfectly complimentary in some circumstances. I love science. I however disagree with a definition of 'science'  that completely takes conventional evolutionary theory as gospel, no questions asked.
I would find it impossible to deny some of the people of the creationist side of the debate have utterly nonsensical views on the topic, however. The Earth isn't 6,000 years old.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Ugh typical, wrote a big screed and my tablet ran out of juice. Sad!

Anyway, the reason scientists reject ID isn't because they are a bunch of meanies who want to kill religion, but there is no real need for theological intervention in the process. The ID approach is one that celebrates laziness in thought and simultaneously cheapens theology and science, reducing God to little more than a stopgap filler for "oh gosh, I can't think of a natural explanation for such a phenomena, so I guess god showed up here for an emergency intervention!"

Contrary to the belief that evolutionary science is some sort of rigid dogma that nobody dare cross, this past century has seen many disputes about the nature of evolution, from Wilson's revival of group selection theory to the ferocious debates between Gould and Dawkins about punctuated equilibrium. People come to academic blows about all sorts, but what fundamentally grounds science is the notion that natural processes are governed by natural laws.

As for why we teach it? Well, because primary education isn't supposed to be merely utilitarian instructions on how to be a good drone, but an introduction to the broad fields of sciences and humanities that children can grow into. And you cannot really understand biology without having a knowledge of evolutionary science. It's as simple as that. You might as well try and teach Christian theology without mentioning Jesus.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

And as for cultural relativism? Throw it into the trash with all nationalism. I don't mind the sidelining of Kemal, but something tells me that this new curriculum isn't going to be some critical analysis of Turkish nationalism, which in both its secular and religious forms has conspired to ethnically cleanse Turkey while hiding behind modernity and pious religion respectively, but yet more nationalist garbage.

[Santander]

I don't mind the sidelining of Kemal

The un-deification of Atatürk is sorely needed in Turkey, although filling that hole with Islamist neo-Ottomanism is probably even worse than the status quo.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I don't mind the sidelining of Kemal

The un-deification of Atatürk is sorely needed in Turkey, although filling that hole with Islamist neo-Ottomanism is probably even worse than the status quo.

Yeah, I think all that's happening is one deity is being replaced with another.

[America Needs R'hllor]

wonderful to see children in Turkey are spending less time learning about that trashbag Kemal Ataturk.

So you believe children should be taught to memorize prayers in American public schools?

Turkey is an overwhelmingly Muslim country. As long as non-Muslims can opt out of having to learn the Quran and associated Muslim things, I don't see a problem.

So you'd be fine with teaching Jihad to children just because "muh majority"? And oppressing scientific facts like evolution is ok too? Come on, Erdogan is absolutely atrocious, don't try to defend him just because you have something against Ataturk.

First of all, evolution theory as we generally know it is just that - a theory. Teaching it in public schools as fact without presenting any alternatives is giving it legitimacy it doesn't deserve. Also, you saying that this is 'teaching Jihad to children' betrays your lack of understanding of what Jihad is.
http://islamicsupremecouncil.org/understanding-islam/legal-rulings/5-jihad-a-misunderstood-concept-from-islam.html?start=9

Gravitation is a theory too. Let's all teach alternatives to gravitaion, because it's a theory, right? No, because gravitation, just like evolution and just like the theory tests people take before they learn how to drive, are facts. A scientific theory is not some unproven assumption.
As for Jihad- sure, it might have a deeper theological definition, but jihad is most commonly used for its militaristic definition, an does in fact include it as a viable option according to your source. I find teaching it to children a thing that shows a dangerous process of extremization, which is exactly what Erdogan does on every issue- an extremization of religious fundamentalism, an extremization of aggression towards past Turkish allies like Israel, an extremization of oppression and a gross trampling of basic human freedoms.

[Kingpoleon]

wonderful to see children in Turkey are spending less time learning about that trashbag Kemal Ataturk.

So you believe children should be taught to memorize prayers in American public schools?

Turkey is an overwhelmingly Muslim country. As long as non-Muslims can opt out of having to learn the Quran and associated Muslim things, I don't see a problem.

So you'd be fine with teaching Jihad to children just because "muh majority"? And oppressing scientific facts like evolution is ok too? Come on, Erdogan is absolutely atrocious, don't try to defend him just because you have something against Ataturk.

First of all, evolution theory as we generally know it is just that - a theory. Teaching it in public schools as fact without presenting any alternatives is giving it legitimacy it doesn't deserve. Also, you saying that this is 'teaching Jihad to children' betrays your lack of understanding of what Jihad is.
http://islamicsupremecouncil.org/understanding-islam/legal-rulings/5-jihad-a-misunderstood-concept-from-islam.html?start=9

Um... The theory of relativity is "just a theory," then? What are the viable alternatives to it again?

[Intell]

Tim Turner is basically the equivalent of a Trumpist in Turkey it would seem; supporting the creation of a fundamentalist, Islamist, dictatorial turkey.

Because of course evolution not being taught, secularism being disbanded and concepts of a "holy war", however you frame it, is a good thing.