Abortion

[CTguy]

I am not opposed to your choice to own a gun as long as you aren't wreckless with it.  But I think people like you should respect other peoples choices...  such as the choice to have an abortion.  If you think it is so bad then dont you have one, but don't force everyone else to follow your religious or moral beliefs.

If you won't vote for a candidate who is pro-choice, how can you vote for Bush considering he has been in office for 3 years now with the Republicans in complete control of congress and has done nothing to outlaw abortion, just a few restrictive measures here and there.

[CTguy]

You know, I do respect people who think that abortion is murder.  I don't agree with them but I respect their right to hold their opinion.  Just as long as it's not based solely on the bible and any dogmatic religious views.  

We have a separation of Church and State.  I also don't really sympathize with Christians who say "Thou Shalt not Kill" and then are the first to bang the drum to go to war or to execute someone.

This isn't to say that everyone who is against abortion is a religious fanatic.  I do know some people who are against abortion and the death penalty because they are bleeding hearts and feel terrible about the idea of killing babies.  Again, I totally disagree with them, but I empathize with them.  

With that said, if these people really think abortion is murder, why have they, through the years been so focused on stopping interracial marriage, gay marriage, civil rights, integration, immigration, the separation of church and state...  I mean you'd think this issue would take precedence if they believed abortion was murder...  I mean what bigger issue could you have than mass murders...  thousands a weeks...?

I just watched a program on A&E dealing with the civil rights movement...  One of the religious principles the KKK used against integration was that the bible teaches us that different races should remain separate... as one Klan leader put it "You don't see different fish in the sea swimming in the same schools."  It's just amazing that religious people take up wedge issues like that rather than focusing on the real problems in society like the huge poor population in this country (who tend to be the most religious of any group)...  what about helping their fellow christian man rather than creating these wedge issues that divide the country and solve nothing!

[CTguy]

You're right, he can't personally vote on it.  But you're kidding yourself if you think Bush or any politician really cares...  

He is outspoken in his belief that Congress should amend the constitution to outlaw gay marriages...  yet he doesn't call for similar action on abortion... which he and you and many others think is MURDER???

I don't get the logic in that!!  Murder seems like a much bigger issue...

Oh wait I do get the logic... he follows polls that say that well over 60% of the public wants to keep abortion legal...  whereas only 35% support gay marriage...  In other words he wants to pick a winning issue rather than one he really cares about.

I do think you probably care deeply about the issue...  I disagree with you but I don't think for one minute that Bush cares or is even bothered for a second that there are 3 million abortions a year.  He just cares how many millions of votes he can get by pandering to some religious lobby while not offending the public at large.

[CTguy]

The most recent poll, done by CNN/USA TODAY/GALLUP, states that 26% of Americans want abortion always legal, 17% want abortion always illegal, and 55% of americans want abortion illegal in cases of rape, incest, or threat to the mother's life. Meaning, 72% of Americans want abortion illegal in 95% of the cases it's done. No, it's incorrect in saying that 60% of Americans want abortion completely legal. You probably read NBC/Wall Street Poll, which was extremely biased, or asked different questions.

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That is complete rubbish.  55% of the public wants abortion illegal in cases of rape, incest and threat to the mother's life?   Give me a break.  The majority of the public wants abortion legal PERIOD.  

And if you look at where people want it legal, it is usually suburban swing districts that decide which party controls congress.  If your numbers were anything near reality, abortion would have been made illegal a long time ago.  Even the Republican senator from Alaska is pro-choice.  

[CTguy]

The 55% wants it sometimes legal, whereas you wrote, 55% wanted it legal even in cases of rape, incest, woman's life.  

This data clearly shows that a vast majority of Americans want abortion legal.

[CTguy]

And you think the majority want it illegal, yet it's legal in all 50 states and D.C.?

You get real.  There were probably 100 abortions in the 10 minutes it took you to come up with that.  And that's how it should be.

[CTguy]

I graduated from Yale a while ago and no longer live in the area.  Make fun of Yale all you want, but I'm sure some of my "Yale buddies" will be congressmen before you get promoted to head cow-milker on your dairy farm.

[CTguy]

You mean the way Bush takes oil and drug company money and then cheats Americans?  Yeah I agree.  

And wrong again, I've milked a cow before...  we have farms here in New England...  we just don't have biggots and religious fanatics.

[CTguy]

Yes I do stand by my post.  I agree whole-heartedly that abortion should be legal and so do many many independents and moderates.  

It is not sacred to me, in fact I don't vote on the issue at all...  Abortion is not at all a concern of mine when I vote... I would vote for a pro-life candidate if I agreed with him on issues I actually do care about.  Though I would prefer a pro-choice candidate.

And as to the referendum... Yes I think there should be a referendum to put this issue to rest...  You're lucky it's not voted on that way because the only people who talk about the issue are pro-life extremists...  If more people were forced to take a stand you wouldn't like the results.

Anyways, I thought you Republicans don't like national referendums...  I mean if we had that then Gore would be President.  

And as to the judiciary...  As we are seeing from the gay marriage debate...  the judiciary doesn't always get their way.  Why dont you guys propose a constitutional amendment banning abortion since you believe it has such huge support among the electorate.

The fact is that Republicans don't want to talk about the abortion issue.  Here in Connecticut alone we have 3 Republican congressmen that are all strongly pro-choice.  If any of them spoke up against abortion they'd lose their seats in a second.  So I wouldn't make this a huge issue if you want Republicans to retain Congress.  You'd find the same thing happening to congressmen in a lot of other states.

[CTguy]

I quoted you as directly saying that 55% want abortion illegal in cases of rape and incest...  which your poll showed the exact opposite of...

And as to the notion that anyone who supports abortion is immoral, that is bull.  You are probably one of those people who wants half the people in jail executed.  

Personally, if I was a woman and I had an unwanted pregnancy, I probably wouldn't get an abortion, however I think it is a PERSONAL CHOICE!

And like I said, you guys are the ones blowing this issue out of proportion.  I could care less what someone else does, nor would I want to promote abortion, it's you guys who cant get over this issue.  The vast majority of people in this country don't think that people who abortions are murderers.  

I have a friend who had an abortion.  She was not raped nor was her life in jeopardy.  However, it was her choice to have an abortion.  What was she going to do?  Raise a child at age 22 and ruin her life?  Give me a break.

And by the way, you guys are the ones who don't want contraception or std prevention programs in the first place.  If people were better educated about stuff like that then we wouldn't have so many abortions in the first place.  The fact is that abstinence programs have been a complete and utter failure and most of you know it.  

[CTguy]

Brambillas moral views are way out of the mainstream.  This guy wants to ban gay people from living near him and calls anyone who has had an abortion a murderer.  He obviously thinks a substantial part (tens of millions) of the US population are murderers.  I can't listen to this kind of nonsense anymore.

This guy also seems to pick and choose his arguments.  He demands you answer his questions and then he ignores other debates where he doesn't want to respond.

I still want to know from the other debate, since he thinks it's ok to call all homosexuals metal cases since he claims 44% have mental disorders, why shouldn't I call all mexicans law breakers since 50% of mexicans living in the United States entered it illegally.  Since he likes to group and box in entire groups of people, maybe that town in Tennessee should ban Mexicans by his logic...  I'm sure they already want to anyways.

But anyways, back to this topic...  It's sad that in 2004 abortion is even an issue.  In Europe, even conservatives don't make an issue out of it.  This country was founded on religious freedom, not Christian zealotry...  not everyone thinks abortion is murder...  in fact, most don't.  If someone wants to get an abortion, let them, it doesn't concern you.  

[CTguy]

then according to him, you support murderers.  

You know, I've actually never cared much about the issue of abortion.  But seeing how radical the christian right has become I'm starting to think that the pro-life movement is just wing of the christian rights zealous movement to outlaw anything the bible disagrees with.  (Except capitol punishment of course).

[CTguy]

The Pope was also against the war in Iraq, but I don't remember hearing you scream that at Bush.

By the way, what do you call the people who bomb abortion clinics?  I've heard many religious leaders call them "heros."  What a nice religion you have.

[CTguy]

Hell to be paid?  I already don't go to Church so I guess I'm going to hell anyways...

Should be nice, maybe I'll finally get a tan.

[CTguy]

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Here's your problem, CTguy, I have not made one post supporting the war on Iraq. You have this idea that I'm some sort of radical right-wing fundamentalist Christian who wants nothing better than to go to war with Iraq. Where have I stated that I supported the war? Where have I stated that I'm a Christian? Finally, your point is an ad hominum.

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Cowards. Jerks.

Did I say you supported the war?  No, but clearly you pick and choose what people to quote as you do with psychologists and now religious leaders.  Why dont you spend as much time quoting the Pope when he disagrees with Bush.  Republicans don't have a monopoly on ideas from the Vatican.  So if you want to follow the Vatican's dogma then do it when it runs contrary to Bush, like when they are telling all Catholics to stand up against the War in Iraq.

[CTguy]

The snobbish angle has been tried for years.  In fact I was watching a program about the kkk the other day.  And their main line of attack against whites supporting integration in the south was that they were all "communists and northern snobs."

Listening to some of the people here talk about gays and feminists I feel like I'm reading a history book.  Of course that makes me a "snob" too, but like you a proud snob.

[CTguy]

Anti-war protestors weren't picking sides either.  They wanted peace as much as the Pope did.  The point wasn't what the pope said but what you have been saying and the fact that you only quote him (or make his points for him) when it's convenient for your political philosophy...  which is quite sad...  

Especially since we have a separation of Church and State.  I could care less what the Pope has to say and I was raised Catholic.  In fact, I find him rather annoying.

[CTguy]

I don't want to answer that question until I read up on the topic.  I have not made up my mind either way on this since I have never really thought about it.  But even if that were true I would probably still support abortion rights because I think it is a personal choice that impacts no-one else.  

[CTguy]

Anything to get you to stop whining.

[CTguy]

Typical liberal arguments :

Conservative : I think abortion is murder

Liberal response : You're anti-woman!!!

Conservative : Homosexuality disgusts me

Liberal response : You're a bigot that hates women, blacks and every other minority alive!

Conservative : I'm from the south and have no shame in saying that.

Liberal Response:  I bet you are you racist pig! I bet you wear sheets to don't you?


As you see most liberals on this board use these arguments, (ct guy), instead of trying to have a thoughtful debate they go right for the throat. Most mainstream Republicans are fed up with being cordial to Democrats and getting stabbed in the back in return.

You are far from a mainstream republican.  Htmldon would be an example of a mainstream republican.  You would be an example of a zealous christian fanatic that no-one does nor should take seriously... your 146 IQ notwithstanding...  ahaha, yeah right.

[CTguy]

I just looked back at all the posts, it is true that Brambilla was the only one who compared gays to pedophiles and has said most of the extremist rhetoric, but I wouldn't be suprised if StatesRights agreed with him and just didn't want to sound as idiotic as brambilla.

[CTguy]

The bible shouldn't even matter.  I find it really offensive that people bring religion into political discussions.  We have a separation of Church and State.  As someone who is an atheist, I find it repugnant that laws that impact me (albeit abortion doesn't) even consider religion when drafted.  

Why did I have to pledge allegiance under God growing up in school when I don't believe in God?  

[CTguy]

I doubt it will be.  Look how organized the religious fanatics are.

[CTguy]

On one hand you people say, not all people think like this and then on the other you say a lot of people do and are just afraid to say it.  

I agree with the latter.  Many republicans think this way and the way those nut jobs in Rhea county that want to ban gay people do and are just too afraid to show what biggots they are...

On a side note...  since you guys want to ban gay marriage because gays are "sinners."

I have a proposal for you.  Lets ban all marriage for people who have had sex before they got married because that is a sin too.  This way only 5% of the population can get married...  I wouldn't be able to get married already... that way you people can have marriage all to yourself.  And my tax dollars can go to pay for your social security benefits.  I tell you, if nothing else at least Bush is cutting my taxes because I am tired of sending my money to Washington so it can pay for the social programs in the South and for people who don't want an education and who don't want to work a real job.  Not that I'm going to vote for the moron.

[CTguy]

It doesn't just go to minorities.  Anyways when did I claim I wanted to do anything for minorities.  I don't support affirmative action or special programs.  I support equal rights for all... not special rights.  When I am taxed upwards of 50% of my salary that I work hard for, yes you like to laugh and make jokes that I went to Yale but it annoys me to no end that I made my money not by affirmative action or having rich parents and now my money goes to pay for people who are lazy.  

But to claim it is just minorities in the south getting it or mostly minorities getting it isn't accurate.  A lot of poor rural whites are getting entitlement money that they don't deserve.  If they aren't paying into the system they shouldn't be getting money.  Alabama shouldn't be getting twice what they put in when CT is getting less than half.