BREAKING: Catalonia Declares Independence

[NewYorkExpress]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia/spain-blocks-catalan-independence-vote-threatens-charges-idUSKCN1BI1GQ

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Is civil war imminent?

[SATW]

Things are going to get intense and...interesting, that's for sure

[Lachi]

Spain subverting democracy. Who woulda thunk it?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

FF move by the Spanish government.

[Helsinkian]

Spain subverting democracy. Who woulda thunk it?

If Western Australia announced that it was going to hold a referendum to decide secession from Australia, would the Australian government be fine with that?

[Mike88]

Spain subverting democracy. Who woulda thunk it?

Actually no. It is the Catalan government that is subverting democracy. The debate on the Independence law was a complete mess as Junts pel Sí skipped over many parliamentary rules and forced the approval of this bill without a serious discussion in Parliament. The Spanish government is just following the law, but the Catalan government is doing everything they can to make Madrid explode and do something that they could regret.

[Lachi]

Spain subverting democracy. Who woulda thunk it?

Actually no. It is the Catalan government that is subverting democracy. The debate on the Independence law was a complete mess as Junts pel Sí skipped over many parliamentary rules and forced the approval of this bill without a serious discussion in Parliament. The Spanish government is just following the law, but the Catalan government is doing everything they can to make Madrid explode and do something that they could regret.

Oh, well, that makes more sense.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Spain subverting democracy. Who woulda thunk it?

If Western Australia announced that it was going to hold a referendum to decide secession from Australia, would the Australian government be fine with that?

It would be contrary to the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act which established Australia as "one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth".

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Is civil war imminent?

Suure!

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

They should have just ran a campaign to defeat it at the ballot box.  The polls are close, which means it would likely fail anyways. Best case was going to be a kind of narrow pass, nothing like the Kurdistan vote the week before will be like.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

They should have just ran a campaign to defeat it at the ballot box.  The polls are close, which means it would likely fail anyways. Best case was going to be a kind of narrow pass, nothing like the Kurdistan vote the week before will be like.

Best not to open Pandora's Box.
Mas and his foolish followers should not be appeased.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Spain subverting democracy. Who woulda thunk it?

If Western Australia announced that it was going to hold a referendum to decide secession from Australia, would the Australian government be fine with that?

Yeah, but the tradition is to ignore it.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Artur Mas is a baby who whined 'MADRID!'.

[swl]

Not only the constitutional court said the referendum was illegal, but it also said the the mayors who help organizing it will be prosecuted, and probably fined + made ineligible, like Arthur Mas.

Professional politicians in big cities are not ready to jeopardize their careers for this.
Several of the 10 biggest cities (Lleida, Tarragona, Santa Coloma, l'Hosiptalet, Mataro...) already said there won't be any vote in their cities. Ada Colau (mayor of Barcelona) may take the same decision and if she does then it's the end of this referendum.

Also Monday is the "national" holiday of Catalonia and the independentists are organizing a big march, I hope they won't be too angry..

[swl]

Mas was already sentenced and does not have any elected position now. He was replaced by Carles Puigdemont who will face the same fate if he doesn't cancel the referendum.
But not all of the 700+ mayors in Catalonia want to follow them, especially the career politicians.

[Mike88]

Barcelona city will not allow municipal spaces to hold the referendum.

[GlobeSoc]

Taking a cursory look at the polls, it seems that support for a referendum is far higher than support for independence, this could make a Catalonia secession more likely. Could someone familiar with the situation explain what's going on?

[Zinneke]

Taking a cursory look at the polls, it seems that support for a referendum is far higher than support for independence, this could make a Catalonia secession more likely. Could someone familiar with the situation explain what's going on?

If you look in the Spanish thread on IE tack50 gives a drawn out explanation. For one, Catalonia has votes "Yes" before in both a dud referendum and what was presented as a proxy for a referendum, the 2015 regional election, where the nationalist parties won by a fraction enough to win a majority. For two, it appears the "unionist" party voters are indicating that they are boycotting, which will turn the referendum into a procession for the nationalists, but hardly legitimise it further.

So Catalan independence is still unlikely.

That's not to say Rajoy is acting completely unreasonably and is seemingly enjoying this game of chicken, knowing that this referendum helps him politically. Also, the people who cite the Constitutional Court should be aware that its members are partly elected by the Senate, the Congress of Deputies, the King and the Executive, all of whom are well known for their *unbiased* legal stance on peripheral nationalism. The Senate in particular is an institution that is elected in a way as to ensure the traditional parties (PP, PSOE) have a degree of control over the Constitutional Court.

The constitutional "failure" is that the autonomous parliament of Catalunya delivered a separatist majority through constitutional means, but the referendum they propose is unconstitutional, because as far as I gather, any modification to the constitution by referendum (allowing Catalonia to secede) must be done nationwide (all over Spain). So the most legal "pathway" for Catalans to declare independence is to lobby for a nationwide referendum as to whether they should stay in or not. 

Here is some nice reading material on the liklihood of secession in Europe and the EU's role : http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1396&context=djcil

[mileslunn]

It might be unconstitutional but shouldn't a place have the right to secede if a clear majority want it.  I can understand maybe requiring a higher threshold than just 50%+1 and perhaps require also a certain voter turnout level, but saying it cannot be done whatsoever seems to be going a bit far.  The EU said if Montenegro's independence vote was under 55% that likely wouldn't represent it while here in Canada after the near miss of Quebec separating in 1995, we have the Clarity Act which requires a clear question with a clear majority although basically the Canadian government can decide what constitutes that is no exact number is set.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Catalonia doesn't deserve to be able to break away even if nationalists can arguably easily corral a majority (if we treat the 2015 regional election as a proxy). Rajoy's handling of the situation has been good in my opinion. Una España unida y indivisible.
If these nationalist politicians want to lose their positions, that's fine by me. Unmerited hatred against other regions in Spain, needless division, and manufactured greivances with little to no basis in actual history are the true foundations of modern Catalan nationalism. Franco is no longer in power, and they have some autonomy. They don't seem to care about rule of law or the truth. Their narration of the past is filled with lies and ideologically motivated half-truths, and they've successfully brainwashed a big chunk of the youngest generation. They are agents of sectional-based hatred and unneeded division, and they must not be allowed to win. Rajoy must keep his spine and his resolve to keep Spain together. He needs to woo those who haven't bought into the nationalists' lies.

[Lord Halifax]

Catalonia doesn't deserve to be able to break away even if nationalists can arguably easily corral a majority (if we treat the 2015 regional election as a proxy). Rajoy's handling of the situation has been good in my opinion. Una España unida y indivisible.
If these nationalist politicians want to lose their positions, that's fine by me. Unmerited hatred against other regions in Spain, needless division, and manufactured greivances with little to no basis in actual history are the true foundations of modern Catalan nationalism. Franco is no longer in power, and they have some autonomy. They don't seem to care about rule of law or the truth. Their narration of the past is filled with lies and ideologically motivated half-truths, and they've successfully brainwashed a big chunk of the youngest generation. They are agents of sectional-based hatred and unneeded division, and they must not be allowed to win. Rajoy must keep his spine and his resolve to keep Spain together. He needs to woo those who haven't bought into the nationalists' lies.

Why this weird hatred? Catalonia is a nation with its own language and culture. If they want their own nation state what does it matter to you? All peoples should be entitled to self-determination.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Catalonia doesn't deserve to be able to break away even if nationalists can arguably easily corral a majority (if we treat the 2015 regional election as a proxy). Rajoy's handling of the situation has been good in my opinion. Una España unida y indivisible.
If these nationalist politicians want to lose their positions, that's fine by me. Unmerited hatred against other regions in Spain, needless division, and manufactured greivances with little to no basis in actual history are the true foundations of modern Catalan nationalism. Franco is no longer in power, and they have some autonomy. They don't seem to care about rule of law or the truth. Their narration of the past is filled with lies and ideologically motivated half-truths, and they've successfully brainwashed a big chunk of the youngest generation. They are agents of sectional-based hatred and unneeded division, and they must not be allowed to win. Rajoy must keep his spine and his resolve to keep Spain together. He needs to woo those who haven't bought into the nationalists' lies.

Why this weird hatred? Catalonia is a nation with its own language and culture. If they want their own nation state what does it matter to you? All peoples should be entitled to self-determination.

Catalonia isn't being suppressed like it was under Franco, for one. They are free to speak Catalan and enjoy their culture. They should be recognized as a nation within Spain (the courts really overreached themselves in 2010) but independence would be a terrible idea for all parties involved. As long as the nationalists in Spain keep talking up referendums and keep ignoring court rulings and all that, they must accept the risks they are putting on their political careers.

[TDAS04]

I've been fairly neutral on this, but the fact that Spain is trying to force the region to allow bullfighting makes me more supportive of Catalan independence. 

[Lord Halifax]

Catalonia doesn't deserve to be able to break away even if nationalists can arguably easily corral a majority (if we treat the 2015 regional election as a proxy). Rajoy's handling of the situation has been good in my opinion. Una España unida y indivisible.
If these nationalist politicians want to lose their positions, that's fine by me. Unmerited hatred against other regions in Spain, needless division, and manufactured greivances with little to no basis in actual history are the true foundations of modern Catalan nationalism. Franco is no longer in power, and they have some autonomy. They don't seem to care about rule of law or the truth. Their narration of the past is filled with lies and ideologically motivated half-truths, and they've successfully brainwashed a big chunk of the youngest generation. They are agents of sectional-based hatred and unneeded division, and they must not be allowed to win. Rajoy must keep his spine and his resolve to keep Spain together. He needs to woo those who haven't bought into the nationalists' lies.

Why this weird hatred? Catalonia is a nation with its own language and culture. If they want their own nation state what does it matter to you? All peoples should be entitled to self-determination.

Catalonia isn't being suppressed like it was under Franco, for one. They are free to speak Catalan and enjoy their culture. They should be recognized as a nation within Spain (the courts really overreached themselves in 2010) but independence would be a terrible idea for all parties involved. As long as the nationalists in Spain keep talking up referendums and keep ignoring court rulings and all that, they must accept the risks they are putting on their political careers.

I was mostly referring to the weird passion you seem to have about this.

What does "suppression" have to do with anything? There should be a general right to self-determination for any nation whether its oppressed or not.

Independence would hardly be a terrible idea for the Catalans. They can easily manage without being part of the rather inept Spanish state.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Catalonia doesn't deserve to be able to break away even if nationalists can arguably easily corral a majority (if we treat the 2015 regional election as a proxy). Rajoy's handling of the situation has been good in my opinion. Una España unida y indivisible.
If these nationalist politicians want to lose their positions, that's fine by me. Unmerited hatred against other regions in Spain, needless division, and manufactured greivances with little to no basis in actual history are the true foundations of modern Catalan nationalism. Franco is no longer in power, and they have some autonomy. They don't seem to care about rule of law or the truth. Their narration of the past is filled with lies and ideologically motivated half-truths, and they've successfully brainwashed a big chunk of the youngest generation. They are agents of sectional-based hatred and unneeded division, and they must not be allowed to win. Rajoy must keep his spine and his resolve to keep Spain together. He needs to woo those who haven't bought into the nationalists' lies.

Why this weird hatred? Catalonia is a nation with its own language and culture. If they want their own nation state what does it matter to you? All peoples should be entitled to self-determination.

Catalonia isn't being suppressed like it was under Franco, for one. They are free to speak Catalan and enjoy their culture. They should be recognized as a nation within Spain (the courts really overreached themselves in 2010) but independence would be a terrible idea for all parties involved. As long as the nationalists in Spain keep talking up referendums and keep ignoring court rulings and all that, they must accept the risks they are putting on their political careers.

I was mostly referring to the weird passion you seem to have about this.

What does "suppression" have to do with anything? There should be a general right to self-determination for any nation whether its oppressed or not.

Independence would hardly be a terrible idea for the Catalans. They can easily manage without being part of the rather inept Spanish state.

I don't have the same view as you do regarding self-determination as a concept and I generally see independence as a matter of last resort. Mas and his supporters seem to have a victimization complex that can have a terribly corrosive element to popular political culture and stirs up resentments and bad feelings, not to mention manufacturing artificial grievances - all this having no real positive effect in this case, IMO. Being within the boundaries of the same nation generally ought to be an opportunity for cooperation, brotherhood, and positive civic pride (within limits ofc - all three of these things can be twisted for bad ends).
Instead of seeking to make Spain a better place and spread a sense of togetherness, they broadcast this message of grievance that can have a gravely toxic effect. Once you replace humility with self-importance and replace brotherly love with petty (i.e. unjustified) grievance, bad things can result.
I have few positive things to say about these people.