BREAKING: Catalonia Declares Independence

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

It's pretty clear the "Catalan Republic" won't hold on as an entity, so I wouldn't hold my breath for any actual recognition.

Rajoy actually seems to be smarter one now. A hasty, unilateral declaration did undercut separatists' support, while Puigdemont seems to have little to none room for maneuvering.

Rajoy still doesn’t seem too smart to me. If he had allowed the King to give a speech calling for unity and promising self-determination for Catalonia, there would be no danger of any real violence.

Fair point. He's certainly the luckier one though.

[swl]

Seems likely that the separatists will fold and accept to participate in the regional election. Probably with new leaders as the current ones may be jailed by then.
- If they lose then it will solve the problem, or at least postpone it for a few years. If they win and keep a majority in the regional parliament then.. who knows.

[jaichind]

Puigdemont posted an undated picture from inside the regional government headquarters on Instagram but made no public appearance as reporters swarmed around his office.  A few ousted Catalan officials posted pictures on social media of their arrival at work in a show of defiance after being fired by the Spanish government on Friday.  But none of them made public appearances and mostly left their "office" once the police showed up.   

[Helsinkian]

LOL, looks like Puigdemont fled to Belgium.

[jaichind]

LOL, looks like Puigdemont fled to Belgium.

History repeats itself, first as tragedy and second as farce.  This sounds a lot like Lluís Companys who was the leader of Revolutionary Catalonia (1936-1939) that escaped to France when Franco's armies entered Barcelona.  He was arrested by the Germans in 1940 and handed over to Franco and executed.  Hopefully   Puigdemont has a better ending.

[swl]

9 members of the Catalan government have been jailed today, i.e all the government minus 5 members who are currently in Belgium (inckuding Puigdemont) and one guy that resigned before the declaration of independence. In theory they all risk up to 30 years in prison.

[swl]

Spain requested a european arrest warrant against Puigdemont.
Many are truly shocked by the decision to jail the whole government. The crisis continues...

As a foreigner I stayed away from gatherings of both side. Will go tonight for the first time.

[Mike88]

Spain requested a european arrest warrant against Puigdemont.
Many are truly shocked by the decision to jail the whole government. The crisis continues...

As a foreigner I stayed away from gatherings of both side. Will go tonight for the first time.

They broke the law plus their leader fled to Brussels, i don't know how they would escape jail time, especially when there is a risk of escape of many former Catalonia government members.

[Frozen Sky Ever Why]

The Spanish government is disgusting on every level. Truly pond scum.

[Santander]

Castilians are vile.

[Former President tack50]

Spain requested a european arrest warrant against Puigdemont.
Many are truly shocked by the decision to jail the whole government. The crisis continues...

As a foreigner I stayed away from gatherings of both side. Will go tonight for the first time.

They broke the law plus their leader fled to Brussels, i don't know how they would escape jail time, especially when there is a risk of escape of many former Catalonia government members.

To be fair, while I agree with the government going to prison (they didn't even reply to the judge with the exception of Santi Vila, who replied and as a result was allowed to leave under a 50 000€ bail), my main issue is that Spanish judges don't even seem consistent!

There were technically 2 parallel judges: one for the Catalan Government and one against the table of the Catalan Parliament (the one who decides what legislators will vote that day). They were both given less than 48h to prepare their defenses.

However, in the latter case the judge conceded 1 extra week to prepare a defense at the petition of the accused attorneys (although they were placed under cautionary measures like taking their passports), while on the former case (Catalan government) that petition was denied and they were sent to prison inmediately.

Now, it's not like 1 extra week free would matter that much but it would still make it look much better.

[wxtransit]

Mr. Puigdemont himself: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/06/carles-puigdemont-catalonia-democracy-spain-catalans

I wonder what he plans next.

[Former President tack50]

Mr. Puigdemont himself: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/06/carles-puigdemont-catalonia-democracy-spain-catalans

I wonder what he plans next.

He has said that he has no problem with running again as PDECat's candidate if the party wants him to run. The other alternative seems Santi Vila, who wants the party to moderate, and advocates for basically copying Podemos' position of "referendum, but a legal one". But I Vila's candidacy won't go anywhere.

Also, this means that the 2 main secessionist canidates won't be able to campaign effectively. Puigdemont is in Brussels and Junqueras is in jail. In fact, they might not even be able to vote for themselves! (though I think that they will both be allowed to vote by mail)

[Clyde1998]

A serious question: what happens if Catalans elect a majority of parties committed to independence (and who are willing to do it unilaterally); would the Spanish Government just simply go through the same process to prevent the independence of Catalonia at all costs, even if there's a clear mandate for it?

[Alex20]

A serious question: what happens if Catalans elect a majority of parties committed to independence (and who are willing to do it unilaterally); would the Spanish Government just simply go through the same process to prevent the independence of Catalonia at all costs, even if there's a clear mandate for it?

That will not happen is impossible, even if it happened, the constitution is clear, even with 90% in favor, they can go to France but Catalonia will remain Spanish. Any process of independence agreed, would be political suicide. 75% of the rest of Spaniards are opposed to that and 55% want "hard hand" with Catalonia, even 43% were favorable to armed intervention

[Kingpoleon]

If the Catalonians really want independence, they need to negotiate for a referendum - not with Rajoy, but with the King. Let the King name his nephew, Felipe de Marichalar y Borbón, as “Prince of Catalonia,” if the referendum succeeds.

[Former President tack50]

If the Catalonians really want independence, they need to negotiate for a referendum - not with Rajoy, but with the King. Let the King name his nephew, Felipe de Marichalar y Borbón, as “Prince of Catalonia,” if the referendum succeeds.

The king has literally 0 power whatsoever. So negotiating with him would be worthless. Plus, every time a Spanish king has meddled in politics he has been replaced by a Republic and/or overthrown in a coup

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

They should solve this old school and force Rajoy and Puigdemont to get married.

[The Mikado]

If the Catalonians really want independence, they need to negotiate for a referendum - not with Rajoy, but with the King. Let the King name his nephew, Felipe de Marichalar y Borbón, as “Prince of Catalonia,” if the referendum succeeds.

This suggestion is insane, FYI.

[Kingpoleon]

If the Catalonians really want independence, they need to negotiate for a referendum - not with Rajoy, but with the King. Let the King name his nephew, Felipe de Marichalar y Borbón, as “Prince of Catalonia,” if the referendum succeeds.

The king has literally 0 power whatsoever. So negotiating with him would be worthless. Plus, every time a Spanish king has meddled in politics he has been replaced by a Republic and/or overthrown in a coup

Sure, but by negotiating with the King, it undermines Rajoy’s claims to “tradition” and the way things have been for hundreds of years. If Rivera and the king agree to a referendum, Rajoy will be forced into a corner and probably challenged from within his party.

[Tintrlvr]

They should solve this old school and force Rajoy and Puigdemont to get married.

Strongly approve.

[NewYorkExpress]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/13/europe/catalonia-russia-connection-referendum/index.html

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Does this surprise anyone?

[Kingpoleon]

Good to see Rajoy ganging up on Russia.

[jaichind]

Latest poll has pro-Spain parties getting a positive swing from 2015 to get to 52.8% of the vote versus 48.0% in 2015.  It seems CUP is taking a hit.  Seat wise it seems the pro-independence parties could still win a majority but most likely will fall short.  It does seem that the 2015 UDC vote is mostly not going to JuntsxCat which is what one would expect.

I must admit that the pro-independence parties are doing better then I would expect given what took place last few weeks. This does speak to the salience of the regional identity issue.

[Former President tack50]

Latest poll has pro-Spain parties getting a positive swing from 2015 to get to 52.8% of the vote versus 48.0% in 2015.  It seems CUP is taking a hit.  Seat wise it seems the pro-independence parties could still win a majority but most likely will fall short.  It does seem that the 2015 UDC vote is mostly not going to JuntsxCat which is what one would expect.

I must admit that the pro-independence parties are doing better then I would expect given what took place last few weeks. This does speak to the salience of the regional identity issue.

Worth noting that of the remnants of UDC, the largest made a deal to contest the election alongside PSC. Ramon Espadaler, a regional minister and the last secretary general of UDC is number 3 for Barcelona. So maybe they are going there.