BREAKING: Catalonia Declares Independence
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  BREAKING: Catalonia Declares Independence
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Author Topic: BREAKING: Catalonia Declares Independence  (Read 22500 times)
Zinneke
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« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2017, 09:45:24 AM »
« edited: September 09, 2017, 09:47:53 AM by coloniac »

Catalonia doesn't deserve to be able to break away even if nationalists can arguably easily corral a majority (if we treat the 2015 regional election as a proxy). Rajoy's handling of the situation has been good in my opinion. Una España unida y indivisible.

You are absolutely right, but why not go one step further and use "Espana, Una, Grande y Libre" to convince yet more Catalans that you represent their interests. That's bound to keep them believing in the Spanish institutions.

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Agree here, but this is no different to the manufactured grievances that cause faultlines across the world.


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*Their parties don't care about the rule of law. Have Catalan nationalists engaged in violence, intimidation, ethnic cleansing since Terra Lliurre? We have to give them at least this credit. Its all been done within democratic boundaries, save for the past few years. And the radicalization of the Catalan nationalist movement can and has been attributed to the PP's stance on autonomous powers.

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The part in bold can be said about the Partido Popular and Spanish nationalism, in much the same way radical Unionism in Northern Ireland and radical Belgicism way back in the 19-20th century lead to the creation or rebirth of artificial nationalism in their peripheral regions by political entrepreneurs. It is the one way ticket to not preserve a multi-ethnic state in modern Europe.
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President Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2017, 10:17:56 AM »

You do raise fair points.
Espana, Una, Grande y Libre is indeed a superior version to use in this context.
As for the recent radicalization of the nationalist movement in Catalonia, it does show that the 2010 court ruling (which really started this mess) was too broad and sweeping. Catalonia is most definitely a nation, not one that deserves independence but still has a distinct heritage and history that deserves respect. The form that respect takes can take many forms; if one that is perhaps wider than necessary is used, it really isn't the end of the world.
And, I guess I do need to give them credit for them being completely peaceful.
To me, governance is a cooperative project, and mutual respect is very important. I judge the Catalan nationalists rather harshly, but that by no means it's fair to say the PP has been blameless either.
You raise a very good point about nationalism as well - something that can be lost in this era of successionist movements. Nationalism outright birthed Italy, Germany, and loads of countries in Africa and Asia. What we are seeing now is something of a reversion to the mean, with the reverse gear in use instead.
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Daniel909012
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« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2017, 11:42:18 AM »

Catalonia doesn't deserve to be able to break away even if nationalists can arguably easily corral a majority (if we treat the 2015 regional election as a proxy). Rajoy's handling of the situation has been good in my opinion. Una España unida y indivisible.

You are absolutely right, but why not go one step further and use "Espana, Una, Grande y Libre" to convince yet more Catalans that you represent their interests. That's bound to keep them believing in the Spanish institutions.

Quote
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Agree here, but this is no different to the manufactured grievances that cause faultlines across the world.


Quote
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*Their parties don't care about the rule of law. Have Catalan nationalists engaged in violence, intimidation, ethnic cleansing since Terra Lliurre? We have to give them at least this credit. Its all been done within democratic boundaries, save for the past few years. And the radicalization of the Catalan nationalist movement can and has been attributed to the PP's stance on autonomous powers.

Quote
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The part in bold can be said about the Partido Popular and Spanish nationalism, in much the same way radical Unionism in Northern Ireland and radical Belgicism way back in the 19-20th century lead to the creation or rebirth of artificial nationalism in their peripheral regions by political entrepreneurs. It is the one way ticket to not preserve a multi-ethnic state in modern Europe.

Belgium a nation invented by the United Kingdom and France to be neutral in wars. Half of your country does not want independence?

Catalonia is a rotten nest full of corruption and intolerance. It is not surprising that half of Spaniards accept the military force Against catalonia
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Zinneke
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« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2017, 12:35:39 PM »
« Edited: September 09, 2017, 12:38:48 PM by coloniac »

Catalonia doesn't deserve to be able to break away even if nationalists can arguably easily corral a majority (if we treat the 2015 regional election as a proxy). Rajoy's handling of the situation has been good in my opinion. Una España unida y indivisible.

You are absolutely right, but why not go one step further and use "Espana, Una, Grande y Libre" to convince yet more Catalans that you represent their interests. That's bound to keep them believing in the Spanish institutions.

Quote
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Agree here, but this is no different to the manufactured grievances that cause faultlines across the world.


Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

*Their parties don't care about the rule of law. Have Catalan nationalists engaged in violence, intimidation, ethnic cleansing since Terra Lliurre? We have to give them at least this credit. Its all been done within democratic boundaries, save for the past few years. And the radicalization of the Catalan nationalist movement can and has been attributed to the PP's stance on autonomous powers.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

The part in bold can be said about the Partido Popular and Spanish nationalism, in much the same way radical Unionism in Northern Ireland and radical Belgicism way back in the 19-20th century lead to the creation or rebirth of artificial nationalism in their peripheral regions by political entrepreneurs. It is the one way ticket to not preserve a multi-ethnic state in modern Europe.

Belgium a nation invented by the United Kingdom and France to be neutral in wars. Half of your country does not want independence?

Catalonia is a rotten nest full of corruption and intolerance. It is not surprising that half of Spaniards accept the military force Against catalonia


Can you provide a single source demonstrating half of the Belgian population want the break-up of the Belgian state?

Can you provide a source that says half the Spanish people advocate military action against Catalonia?
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ObserverIE
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« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2017, 05:40:32 PM »

Espana, Una, Grande y Libre is indeed a superior version to use in this context.

You do understand whose slogan that was, don't you?
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President Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2017, 11:02:05 PM »

Espana, Una, Grande y Libre is indeed a superior version to use in this context.

You do understand whose slogan that was, don't you?
I don't know who used it, but the word Libre in there certainly seems like it could have some potential for countering 'FREE CATALONIA' propoganda of Mas and friends.
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Zinneke
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« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2017, 03:52:14 AM »

Espana, Una, Grande y Libre is indeed a superior version to use in this context.

You do understand whose slogan that was, don't you?

Its OK, you tried. Its my fault for not adding the /s. 
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Mike88
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« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2017, 10:38:30 AM »

El País/Metroscopia poll on the referendum: (Catalonia voters only)

Q. Do you think that the October 1st referendum is legal or valid?

56% No
38% Yes

Also, El País has a very good report on why the majority of Catalonians are silent on the referendum and the independence questions.

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ObserverIE
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« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2017, 05:28:59 PM »

Espana, Una, Grande y Libre is indeed a superior version to use in this context.

You do understand whose slogan that was, don't you?
I don't know who used it, but the word Libre in there certainly seems like it could have some potential for countering 'FREE CATALONIA' propoganda of Mas and friends.

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Former President tack50
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« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2017, 04:59:05 PM »
« Edited: September 13, 2017, 05:12:44 PM by tack50 »

Remember how 700 mayors said they were going to support the referendum and allow polling places in town hall owned sites? Well, they are now in trouble.

http://www.dw.com/en/spain-threatens-to-arrest-700-catalan-mayors-over-independence-vote/a-40491262

The Spanish courts and government has indicted those 700+ mayors under charges of illegal public spending, contempt of court and prevarication. If they refuse to go to court to declare, they will be arrested.

The far left CUP has already said that its 16 mayors will not attend the request and won't go to declare on court. So they'll probably be arrested if the courts follow through with the threat.

If found guilty of any of those 3 they would be barred from public office for a while. Depending on the exact ruling it would also imply either a fine or prision time (up to 8 years)

I personally find this to be going too far. It's like Rajoy and the courts deliberately want to create martyrs. It would be one thing if they arrested Puigdemont and his cabinet after a DUI, but arresting  mostly innocent mayors from mostly small towns?

This won't end up well Sad
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swl
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« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2017, 01:28:33 PM »

Today the police arrested a dozen of high officials of the Catalan government, apparently the main organizers of the referendum. Also the police has been raiding printing companies and confiscated the ballots they found there. It's hard to see how the referendum could take place normally after all that.

Whoever is "right" on that question, Spanish democracy looks quite bad, when you compare fpr example with the UK and how it handled referedums on Scotland and the EU...
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Lord Halifax
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« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2017, 02:48:53 PM »

Today the police arrested a dozen of high officials of the Catalan government, apparently the main organizers of the referendum. Also the police has been raiding printing companies and confiscated the ballots they found there. It's hard to see how the referendum could take place normally after all that.

Guardia Civil or Mossos d'Esquadra?
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2017, 03:21:02 PM »

Today the police arrested a dozen of high officials of the Catalan government, apparently the main organizers of the referendum. Also the police has been raiding printing companies and confiscated the ballots they found there. It's hard to see how the referendum could take place normally after all that.

Guardia Civil or Mossos d'Esquadra?

Guardia Civil. Though it was after an order from Catalan courts, not Spanish ones.
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TheSaint250
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« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2017, 04:18:52 PM »

We’re things this bad before the Catalan government changed the status of the referendum in 2014?
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NewYorkExpress
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« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2017, 11:02:41 PM »

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/20/europe/spain-catalonia-politics/index.html

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I honestly don't know how Spain avoids a civil war over this, honestly.
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Helsinkian
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« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2017, 10:20:00 AM »

So, do you think the referendum will actually take place on 1 October or not?
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TheSaint250
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« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2017, 11:18:30 AM »
« Edited: September 21, 2017, 12:49:58 PM by Acting Southern Delegate The Saint »

So, do you think the referendum will actually take place on 1 October or not?

I think it will. It’s the perfect selling point: oppressive federal govt, we must secede to succeed, etc.
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Mike88
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« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2017, 11:31:36 AM »
« Edited: September 21, 2017, 11:38:18 AM by Mike88 »

So, do you think the referendum will actually take place on 1 October or not?

I think it will. It’s the perfect selling point: oppressive federal govt, we must decide to succeed, etc.
It will probably happen, like it did in 2014, but PP and PSOE are now willing to negotiate with the Catalan government after October 2nd. The Finance minister is even open to negotiate a new financial autonomy for Catalonia. The victimization of the Catalan government seems a bit difficult after this small openness by the Spanish government.
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Tintrlvr
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« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2017, 01:00:39 PM »

Today the police arrested a dozen of high officials of the Catalan government, apparently the main organizers of the referendum. Also the police has been raiding printing companies and confiscated the ballots they found there. It's hard to see how the referendum could take place normally after all that.

Whoever is "right" on that question, Spanish democracy looks quite bad, when you compare fpr example with the UK and how it handled referedums on Scotland and the EU...

The way the Spanish central government has reacted to this is frankly pathetic. Catalan independence never would have gone anywhere if they didn't insist on alternatively goading and repressing the nationalists at every turn.
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swl
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« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2017, 01:44:57 PM »

So, do you think the referendum will actually take place on 1 October or not?
Most probably it will take place to a certain extent but it will lack the logistics to be seriously credible. People will have to print the ballots at home, many will vote in unofficial places and its possible that the police intervenes and prevents the vote from taking place in key areas. They will probably be quite a lot of irregularities, not because of cheating, but because the logistics are messed up.
 
Everyone is aware of this so the opponents will probably not bother and the result will be like last time: low participation and high percentage of yes.

Very unlikely that the government unilaterally declares independence after a vote that will lack credibility. We can expect the Catalan government to use as a starting point for negotations with the central government for more autonomy or, why not, a path towards a real referendum (unlikely imo)

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Cashew
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« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2017, 04:42:24 PM »

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/20/europe/spain-catalonia-politics/index.html

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I honestly don't know how Spain avoids a civil war over this, honestly.

Civil war with who? Catalonia is just one region, are there sympathizers from other parts of Spain who are willing to rise up and side with it? A bit melodramatic methinks.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2017, 05:30:55 PM »

Sending extra police, arresting politicians, etc is a dumb move.

The Spanish government isn't willing to kill over this (and they shouldn't be) so all this posturing is just a total empty threat while at the same time giving credence to the idea that the Spanish government is hostile to Catalan interests.

The right response by the Spanish government, the only response which might prevent independence, is to do absolutely nothing. Let them hold their referendum. When the results come out just laugh and say "lol wut? you part of spain, stupid"
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Zinneke
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« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2017, 12:19:33 PM »

So the Spanish government tried to take control of the Mossos, the Catalan regional police, in order to stop the alleged illegal referendum. And the Mossos refused. So I think there is a nuclear option where the Spanish government can ensure the Guardía Civil end up with total jurisdiction. I think that would be the point of no return for many nationalists.

But there is no way there is going to be a civil war.
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Helsinkian
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« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2017, 03:40:36 AM »

Rubber projectiles fired by police at protestors. Police closing voting sites, seizing ballots.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2017, 04:46:56 AM »

This is ridiculous and shameful.
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