BREAKING: Catalonia Declares Independence

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Puigdemont made his speech. He "accepted the mandate of the Catalan people to develop an independent state"...but postponed an actual declaration of independence to give time for talks. Talks I'm sure Rajoy will be THRILLED to participate in, just like the last 20 times they wanted to talk about independence.

Apparently Madrid has already said that talks are "not on the table."

[Mike88]

CUP seems to be angry at Puigdemont and are already calling him a "traitor". Early elections in Catalonia?

[The Free North]

CUP seems to be angry at Puigdemont and are already calling him a "traitor". Early elections in Catalonia?

Honestly I think everyone and their mother knows that Madrid is not giving an inch here so 'hey lets talk with them' is not really a good thing for any Catalonian leader to be advocating for. Given the unrest in recent weeks, you either go full on and declare independence, or you dont. The half in, half out path we saw today does absolutely nothing.

[Former President tack50]

CUP seems to be angry at Puigdemont and are already calling him a "traitor". Early elections in Catalonia?

Well, if CUP out of all people end up fulfilling Cs dream I'll be surprised. JxSí indeed lacks a majority if CUP leaves the Catalan parliament (which they've said they'd do). Then again if they insist on dialog and the like maybe Podemos will support JxSí temporarily in exchange for more talks and no more unilateral actions?

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

CUP seems to be angry at Puigdemont and are already calling him a "traitor". Early elections in Catalonia?

Honestly I think everyone and their mother knows that Madrid is not giving an inch here so 'hey lets talk with them' is not really a good thing for any Catalonian leader to be advocating for. Given the unrest in recent weeks, you either go full on and declare independence, or you dont. The half in, half out path we saw today does absolutely nothing.

I agree it was a ridiculous move on his part to cowardly back down from declaring independence. Madrid can never be trusted to negotiate in good faith after everything that's happened over the past few weeks, and Puigdemont won't win any support from the remainers from his little stunt today, and he lost a ton of support from the hardcore independence supporters.

[Obama-Biden Democrat]

Can't Spain just give Catalonia Scotland like devolved powers within a united and indivisible Spain?

[Blue3]

Can't Spain just give Catalonia Scotland like devolved powers within a united and indivisible Spain?

I think they already did.

[Hydera]

Can't Spain just give Catalonia Scotland like devolved powers within a united and indivisible Spain?

They already have since the re-establishment of democracy in Spain. What they didnt have is more control over taxes that go to the central government because they get less in return than what they pay. But Rajoy has decided to work with PSOE to change it because he knows its the quickest way to lower support for Independence if he diffuses one and the main argument they have for independence.

[parochial boy]

CUP seems to be angry at Puigdemont and are already calling him a "traitor". Early elections in Catalonia?

Honestly I think everyone and their mother knows that Madrid is not giving an inch here so 'hey lets talk with them' is not really a good thing for any Catalonian leader to be advocating for. Given the unrest in recent weeks, you either go full on and declare independence, or you dont. The half in, half out path we saw today does absolutely nothing.

I agree it was a ridiculous move on his part to cowardly back down from declaring independence. Madrid can never be trusted to negotiate in good faith after everything that's happened over the past few weeks, and Puigdemont won't win any support from the remainers from his little stunt today, and he lost a ton of support from the hardcore independence supporters.

I dunno, it makes him look like the reasonable one and Rajoy like the frothing at the mouth imperialist; and the more Rajoy looks like the one being the extremist, the more support for independence will increase.

[Former President tack50]

Can't Spain just give Catalonia Scotland like devolved powers within a united and indivisible Spain?

It already has, Catalonia has had a devolved government since 1980 or so. Of course, unlike in the UK (where England has no devolved powers except for London) in Spain everyone got a devolved government.

[Former President tack50]

Can't Spain just give Catalonia Scotland like devolved powers within a united and indivisible Spain?

They already have since the re-establishment of democracy in Spain. What they didnt have is more control over taxes that go to the central government because they get less in return than what they pay. But Rajoy has decided to work with PSOE to change it because he knows its the quickest way to lower support for Independence if he diffuses one and the main argument they have for independence.

The thing is that giving Catalonia fiscal autonomy would hurt the rest of the country quite a bit. Catalonia is the 2nd largest net contributor to the Spanish budget. If their contributions were lowered, poor regions would stop receiving development money from rich ones.

So poor communities like Andalucia or Extremadura are mostly opposed since they would receive less money or would even be eternally poor, losing any chances to develop if they stopped receiving money from richer places.

Then again, you could also argue that it's a cheap price to pay in exchange for Catalonia and the Basques (who would revolt if you removed their fiscal autonomy) to remain. Better to have them as loose communities than to lose them forever.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

That said, Spanish nationalists often get a kick about overruling Catalan autonomy on the most random issues, like reversing their ban on bullfighting.

[Zinneke]

That said, Spanish nationalists often get a kick about overruling Catalan autonomy on the most random issues, like reversing their ban on bullfighting.

To play the Devil's Advocate (because I do agree with you), they seem to mainly use symbolic crap like bullfighting as a way to counter what they see as a blatant assault on the Spanish culture in Catalonia, particularly the language policies there. A regular argument I hear by Ciutadans for example is that a child would only start Castellano at a late age compared to someone living in Aragon, when most of the nationalist bourgeois Convergents send their kids to private schools where they are immersed in trilingualism. IIRC C's was actually partly born out of the rejection of the new language policies, that they see as fundamentally denying the history of Spanish people in Catalonia (the most prominent one being the immigration of Andalucíans to there - their regional leader Arrimadas is for example of Andalucían origin).

But yeah, PP and C's seem to like glorifying all the worse aspects of "Hispanidad" which will never help their case in convincing moderate, autonomous nationalists to at least recognise their views. I can only laugh when I see people like Guy Verhofstadt on twitter praising "liberal" C's. But then again he also courted Beppe Brillo.

[swl]

Can't Spain just give Catalonia Scotland like devolved powers within a united and indivisible Spain?

One thing to know is that in 2006 the Spanish government and the regional goverment agreed on a new autonomy status for Catalonia. Then Catalans accepted it through a referendum (a real one with all garanties that time). The PP, in opposition at that time, was against it. Then the Constitutional Court cancelled most of it in 2010.
That's when support for independence really surged. Independentists won several regional elections in a row, and now we reached a breaking point.
One way out of the crisis, that seem supported by the PSOE, would be to modify the constitution to allow a return to the autonomy status adopted in 2006.

[CatoMinor]

Both sides just seem to be handling this awfully.

[Kingpoleon]

I think that, at this point, maybe trying to make a deal with the E. U. would work: Catalonia will receive its own currency alongside the Euro, and slightly lowering tax burdens in Catalonia.

[Zinneke]

I think that, at this point, maybe trying to make a deal with the E. U. would work: Catalonia will receive its own currency alongside the Euro, and slightly lowering tax burdens in Catalonia.

The EU isn't its own actor, despite what the eurosceptic propaganda likes to say. Yes, there's a lot of "groupthink" and "eurospeak" in Brussels where the policies are drafted*, and yes its "constitution", in the form of Treaties is based on an outdated liberal paradigm, but its treaties still confer most of the power to its Member-states. On issues such as accession to the EU, there has to be unanimity. Every member-state has to agree.

As such, Catalonia cannot negotiate with the EU without first settling its dispute with Spain. And what's more all of the EU countries, with the possible excpetion of Belgium whose largest party is nationalist, do not want to revise each other's borders.

The way forward for Catalonia should it declare independence is simply opening its capital markets fully to people who actively want to undermine the EU (Russia, maybe China but even their businessmen were starting to look at Barcelona's property as a way to store their capital away from the CCP), devaluating its currency, and essentially defaulting on the considerable debt its owes to the Spanish state. No country in Europe would trust the Catalan markets, as productive as its industrial strategy has been.

* I'd argue euroscepticism has made it worse.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Can't Spain just give Catalonia Scotland like devolved powers within a united and indivisible Spain?

It already has, Catalonia has had a devolved government since 1980 or so. Of course, unlike in the UK (where England has no devolved powers except for London) in Spain everyone got a devolved government.

Both countries are still considered unitary states though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism

[Hydera]

Can't Spain just give Catalonia Scotland like devolved powers within a united and indivisible Spain?

It already has, Catalonia has had a devolved government since 1980 or so. Of course, unlike in the UK (where England has no devolved powers except for London) in Spain everyone got a devolved government.

Both countries are still considered unitary states though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism

yes but they have the powers of an autonomous region. its not federalism thats the issue its the issue over catalonia paying more tax revenue to the spanish government and getting less back which unites Left wing catalonian naionalists(ERC, CUP) and right wing catalonian nationalists(Pdecat). left wingers want the money to be abl to spend more on social services and the right wingers want the money because they feel its their right.

[swl]

2 catalans leaders (from associations not politicians) jailed. They are accused of being the leaders of the demonstration that surrounded a building investigated by the Guardia Civil before the referendum, and trapped the police inside all night.
Trapero (head of the Mossos) avoided jail for now but got his passport confiscated so that he cannot leave Spain.
Pro-independence Catalans are not happy.

[NewYorkExpress]

https://in.reuters.com/article/spain-politics-catalonia/spain-plans-new-elections-in-catalonia-to-end-independence-bid-opposition-idINKBN1CP13Y

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Unless the Government in Madrid bans pro-independence parties, the situation will repeat itself in January.

[Former President tack50]

https://in.reuters.com/article/spain-politics-catalonia/spain-plans-new-elections-in-catalonia-to-end-independence-bid-opposition-idINKBN1CP13Y

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Unless the Government in Madrid bans pro-independence parties, the situation will repeat itself in January.

To be fair there's a not insignificant chance of pro-independence parties falling short of a majority. Polls currently put them right at the edge of one. If they lost their majority you'd see them need to get an agreement with CQSP/CeC (basically Podemos's brand there), which while firmly in favour of a referendum, reject unilateral moves.

So depending on how much both sides want to compromise and what the Catalan government wants, that opens many possibilities, like ERC-CQSP-PSC, ERC-CQSP-CUP or ERC-CQSP-PDECat. Maybe even a minority ERC-CQSP government with PDECat and CUP abstaining.

But yeah, if pro-independence parties get a majority things will repeat themselves.

Also, funny how you mention banning secessionist parties, as the Catalan PP leader Xavier Garcia Albiol and other PP hardliners mentioned that possibility reciently:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171016/432123007829/xavier-garcia-albiol-prohibir-programas-electorales-independentistas-elecciones.html?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

I don't think that happened though. Even banning Batasuna (which had ties to ETA) was already quite a stretch on the limits of what was constitutional apparently.

[RodPresident]

https://in.reuters.com/article/spain-politics-catalonia/spain-plans-new-elections-in-catalonia-to-end-independence-bid-opposition-idINKBN1CP13Y

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Unless the Government in Madrid bans pro-independence parties, the situation will repeat itself in January.

To be fair there's a not insignificant chance of pro-independence parties falling short of a majority. Polls currently put them right at the edge of one. If they lost their majority you'd see them need to get an agreement with CQSP/CeC (basically Podemos's brand there), which while firmly in favour of a referendum, reject unilateral moves.

So depending on how much both sides want to compromise and what the Catalan government wants, that opens many possibilities, like ERC-CQSP-PSC, ERC-CQSP-CUP or ERC-CQSP-PDECat. Maybe even a minority ERC-CQSP government with PDECat and CUP abstaining.

But yeah, if pro-independence parties get a majority things will repeat themselves.

Also, funny how you mention banning secessionist parties, as the Catalan PP leader Xavier Garcia Albiol and other PP hardliners mentioned that possibility reciently:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171016/432123007829/xavier-garcia-albiol-prohibir-programas-electorales-independentistas-elecciones.html?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

I don't think that happened though. Even banning Batasuna (which had ties to ETA) was already quite a stretch on the limits of what was constitutional apparently.

Wouldn't joining a coalition with independentist parties be a suicide for CQSP-Podemos?

[swl]

Article 155 will apply next Friday when voted by the Spanish Senate. Rumors are that Puigdemont will declare independence before that.

[TheSaint250]

Article 155 will apply next Friday when voted by the Spanish Senate. Rumors are that Puigdemont will declare independence before that.

It could happen tomorrow:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/869752/Catalan-independence-Catalonia-Carles-Puigdemont-Spain-Madrid-Mariano-Rajoy?utm_content=buffer85e61&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer