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| | |-+  Lumine/Rpryor for President/Vice-President (Defense Policy)
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Author Topic: Lumine/Rpryor for President/Vice-President (Defense Policy)  (Read 1905 times)
Lumine
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« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2017, 09:39:16 pm »

Vice-Presidential Pick coming tomorrow
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« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2017, 01:39:22 am »

* Though I make no guarantees when Yankee inevitably storms in at 1 AM and starts with his 1,000 word quote-storms

September 25, 2017, 01:38:26 am

Eh, who cares
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« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2017, 01:56:31 am »

A constitutional amendment which will eliminate the House of Representatives, and work extensive reform into the Senate to turn it back into a Unicameral System, which nonetheless continues to respect both the representation of the regions and the will of the general electorate. I propose expanding the Senate to eleven members, with six Senators elected as they are by the regions and five Senators elected in At-Large seats, allowing us to lose six government offices to make government smaller and more efficient (which on by itself is a consistent, key conservative principle) while respecting the duality of a Congress which is nonetheless more efficient by using a single chamber.

My fellow Atlasians, is it really such a bad idea?[/justify]
[/quote]

I find it rather disturbing that you intentionally set up the inequity of 5 and 6 with Regions coming off slightly better off in the deal by 1. Surely you can spare 1 extra office to 1) make them both equal and 2) improve the quality of At-Large Elections. Tongue

On the last note I would make a point that STV works far better at higher numbers and tracks far more closely with the Popular Vote with numbers higher than 5. But the elimination of the People's House, replaced with permanent minority bloc of "At-Large" Senators, with a low number that long proved ineffective, will distort the voice of the people and would shut out a lot of people. I am all for regional rights and representation, but the government has to be responsive to the people as well.

It takes 20 votes to win an At-Large Senate seat with 5 offices. It takes 12 to win election for a 9 member House. This will prove most dire on conservatives like Rfayette and independents generally, like Poirot, who fell 5 short and would have instead been 14 votes short of getting into office with 5 seats. More moderate figures like yourself and myself, would do just fine, which I would note according to your argument contributes to the echo chamber consensus.

Frankly Lumine, I think this is a proposal in search of a justification. Unicameralism won't solve the vapidness, hollow debates or "echo-chamber" consensus. You seem to have forgotten the biggest thing here. You served 4, 4.5 Terms in the unicameral Senate. I served 20. There was a hell of a lot of echo chamber consensus, especially all the times the left or center-left had 8 Senators and just mowed us down with only myself and 1 At-Large Senator (for a while Hagrid), giving voice to any opposition. Or in the case of 2009, myself and Jedi being the only votes against single payer healthcare. We barely got them to even consider the fact that they should implement some kind of administrative agency. These problems dominated the unicameral system for years. The only reason you think otherwise is because your experience is from 2014, which occured with a split 5-5 Senate and occured with a highly motivated, partisan and extreme Laborite policy wonk dominating discussion and uniting the opposition. This was rare!

The bulk of the Senates I served in were majority center-left. There were only 5 or 6 Senates with a center-right majority during the entire 6 years and 8 months I served there (which was 40 Senates by the way). And nothing would change that with your system. Because those 6 seats would split 4-2 Labor barring a shift in Lincoln. and the At-Large would split 3-2 Labor or Fed. Assuming they split towards the Feds./You have 5 Federalist and 7 Laborites. If it goes the other way, 8-4 Labor.

Regions are now more left leaning then they were under the old system, because of consolidation, it is hard to break through for a Conservative. And I doubt you are planning to reverse consolidation along with it? Regions almost always elect Moderates. Even when we had 5 Region Maps that was the case, until Labor came dominate a majority of the Regions. Someone like Rfayette could have gotten elected as Senator from the IDS or Mideast in a very close election, but would have a very hard time getting elected even in the Southern Region today.

I am sorry Lumine, but the people who will get screwed six ways to Sunday in your proposal are the Conservatives. The Moderates will be fine and the Left will be laughing right to the bank. And there will be plenty of echo-chamber consensus to go around. The reason we agreed to consolidation, the only reason we agreed to it, was because bicameralism was offered in exchange.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 02:32:04 am by People's Speaker North Carolina Yankee »Logged

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« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2017, 03:13:30 am »

My friends, the fact is as follows. The early months of Bicameralism were a disaster, and I doubt youíll find many Atlasians to tell you otherwise. Gridlock, lack of clarity and coherence, a very odd role for the Vice-Presidency (which I criticized from the start) followed each other as efficiency was very much not accomplished.

The early months of bicameralism were a disaster because 1) Tmth wrote a rules package that had some flaws in it, including a contra-constitutional provision on the role of the Vice President, Which Clark not really wanting to be Speaker in the first place, copied almost verbatim for the house and 2) You as Vice President didn't assert your constitutional rights and demand it be fixed. You also didn't create Noticeboard threads for the First and Second Congress, which had long been the VP's job pre-reset, dating way before Mar 2013 and VP's starting to administer slots. Such threads would have at least kept track of who passed what and provided some order to the chaos. I found this very disappointing watching from the outside, that no one in Congress or the Administration took any leadership on this matter and yes that includes Leinad as well.

The solutions I came up with drew upon stuff we had done before and completely new ideas and together beginning with my term as VP and the pressure I put on Congress, then as President finally when we got the rules rewritten, reversed the tied and made bicameralism functional from an administrative statement. Something you and a bunch of others said I would fail at and frankly, you were all wrong.  

And yes we disagree up and down on the Vice Presidency, but like it not, direct involvement in the Congressional administration has been and indeed the only instances where we have had consistently active Vice Presidencies. Goldwater, while imperfect was far better at it if for no other reason then he tried, I was there to mentor him and finally, he didn't resist his constitutional role.

From March 2013 - July 2014, and from Mar 2017 until now, the Vice President has been active. It has also worked to changed the dynamics in both cases from selecting VPs based on political calculations to selecting VPs based on who will be active and can run a chamber. Whatever you think about Jambles, he was selected in part because he ran a regional legislature and DemPGH knew from having been VP under that new arrangement, how important it was. Both Labor and Fed tickets have former successful Senate PPTs as their running mates. When I started in March, only Truman, Windjammer and myself knew how to make bicameralism work. Now there are a number of people who could be VP, PPT or Speaker and not let the place fall apart.

No offense Lumine, I like you a lot and agree with you a lot but on Congress and VP we are going to have to agree to disagree. I trust your answer is to just abolish it, like abolishing the House. Frankly, I think it is a mistake jsut to keep cutting offices to chase a moving target. You will cut yourself out of game, but we have always differed on this philosophy even as far back as 2013 when you backed consolidation and I opposed it at that point. My preference was always to bring more people in and get them engaged in the process, as opposed to constantly downsizing to chase the activity glut at any given point.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 03:18:09 am by People's Speaker North Carolina Yankee »Logged

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« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2017, 03:16:59 am »

Why not reducing the number of representatives instead of abolishing it?
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« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2017, 03:24:44 am »

Why not reducing the number of representatives instead of abolishing it?

I actually supported the last attempt at this, but I wasn't a member at the time. Tongue
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« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2017, 11:16:00 am »

Vice-Presidential Announcement


Press Release:Former President Lumine announced his running mate today at a rally in Los Angeles, unveiling as well his new campaign banner:

Quote
The task of selecting a Vice-President is never quite an easy one.

Having run two presidential campaigns before, Iíve had the luck of standing besides two very accomplished citizens, just as independent-minded as myself and with whom I had the luxury of a good working personal relationship. Superique, on my first attempt (the first all Latin-American ticket), and SJoyce on the second, him going to serve with distinction and honor as my trusted Vice-President. Now, I am called upon choosing my third running mate, to be at my side during this contentious campaign and hopefully in the White House should we win.

There many criteria to select a running mate, I wonít bore you with an essay on the merits of the office. But I will note, however, that some main principles have guided me in selecting a running mate: Experience, knowing what it means to serve on the Executive and what it means to govern, and to govern well. Closeness, finding it crucial that a President and a Vice-President share a positive relationship which allows both of them to act as a team. Commitment, because a running mate must believe in the case his or her President believes in, even if he may not share every ideal, every political position.

The man Iíve chosen to be my running mate is someone I worked closely during the days of my administration as my Deputy Attorney General, forming part of the most active Justice Department in the past few years (under Zuwo, greatest of all of my cabinet officers). I worked closely with him during the days of Civic Renewal and the attempt to build a different, renewed center-right. He served as Vice-President of this Republic not long ago under President Yankee, bringing with him the experience of a man who knows the office first hand.

Of course, you already know who am I talking about, so I shall let him introduce himself in greater detail.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you whom I hope will be the next Vice-President of Atlasia, Rpryor!

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« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2017, 12:33:36 pm »

Greetings, fellow Atlasians! Over the past few weeks, I have heard the siren call of Nyman in my heart and head, calling me to return to my adopted hometown. My dear friend Oakvale, a former candidate for President, inspired me and many other Atlasians to fight for what we believe in. Even though he has left the race, Oakvale's message of radical change has not died out. We need to shake up the Atlasian system.

We cannot trust our incumbent President. Not only did she vote for Jill Stein, but she has stated a variety of different viewpoints on issues over the last year. Socialist one day, conservative the next. When Simfan questioned if our President's "political transformation had less to do with ideological principles and more to do with her personal support for former president DFW," he had hit the nail on the head. When he admits that he is unsure if she is a crypto-leftist or a left-leaning libertarian, this should frighten all of us. When Labourite supreme Adam Griffin admits that fhtagn's position as a Federalist is due to getting her feelings hurt, this should scare any actual conservative. When leading statesmen have all agreed that there are doubts to the President's actual record of "conservatism." However, that truly doesn't matter.

Whether it's fhtagn or Harry Truman, we will continue to walk the same simple path we've been on for the last few months. Low activity, boring debates, and general small squabbles. If we're going to continue to walk the safe path, then we need a safe pair of hands like Truman. But we shouldn't walk that safe path, the path that continues the downward spiral we've been in as a nation. It's time to shake things up.

That's why I'm running for Vice President with Lumine. Not only is he a safe pair of hands and a respected statesman, but he has the ideas and disposition for change that none of his opponents have. Not only do we need to take a good look at our constitution, but we need to make sweeping policy changes, both foreign and domestic. We need to stand up for those Atlasians who feel disenfranchised by backroom dealings, IRC cabals, and thoughts of "we've always done it that way." There needs to be an alternative to this one-and-a-half party system we have running. That's why I'm here today. It's time for a new dawn for Atlasia and I'm excited to help lead it in.
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« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2017, 12:35:06 pm »

Man you are trying to make this difficult for me Lumine. Tongue


Anyway congrats to Rpryor on his selection. 
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« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2017, 12:39:21 pm »

My dear friend Oakvale, a former candidate for President, inspired me and many other Atlasians to fight for what we believe in. Even though he has left the race, Oakvale's message of radical change has not died out. We need to shake up the Atlasian system.

We need to stand up for those Atlasians who feel disenfranchised by backroom dealings, IRC cabals...

Is this satire or something? You kind of supported the original IRCabaler here! You have to admit, as someone who was most fervent in nuking Bacon King's confirmation in 2015, as you yourself were, that this is pretty ridiculous to the point of being surreal.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 12:42:39 pm by People's Speaker North Carolina Yankee »Logged

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« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2017, 12:59:31 pm »

When Labourite supreme Adam Griffin admits that fhtagn's position as a Federalist is due to getting her feelings hurt, this should scare any actual conservative.

Wait ... you admit that Adam Griffin is an insufferable lefty hack and then simultaneously expect us to take his butthurt slander of an opposing party leader at face value, when he is clearly trying to split the rightwing vote? Why should any rightwinger listen to him? Hell, I've had him on ignore for years. If anything, the fact that he's emerging from his cave to sow discord suggests he's peeved that the conservatives might elect a (half)queer woman of colour president and discredit the idiotic trope of only the left being tolerant. I mean, its pretty fuking awful to suggest that the only reason a woman can obtain the presidency in atlasia is by being a slut, which is what Adam Griffin did. Adam Griffin's condemnation is practically an endorsement to a conservative.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 01:03:37 pm by Mr. Reactionary »Logged



I was not anticipating Mr. Reactionary to introduce 55 pieces of legislation in the South over the past week, which is negating the rise in unemployment that should result from Irma.

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« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2017, 01:00:19 pm »

When Labourite supreme Adam Griffin admits that fhtagn's position as a Federalist is due to getting her feelings hurt, this should scare any actual conservative.

You mean like voting for President Griffin's reelection in a close two way race between two rather ideologically opposed candidates, would?
http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=229638.msg4920630#msg4920630
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« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2017, 01:07:12 pm »

When Labourite supreme Adam Griffin admits that fhtagn's position as a Federalist is due to getting her feelings hurt, this should scare any actual conservative.

You mean like voting for President Griffin's reelection in a close two way race between two rather ideologically opposed candidates, would?
http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=229638.msg4920630#msg4920630

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I was not anticipating Mr. Reactionary to introduce 55 pieces of legislation in the South over the past week, which is negating the rise in unemployment that should result from Irma.

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« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2017, 01:07:33 pm »

When Labourite supreme Adam Griffin admits that fhtagn's position as a Federalist is due to getting her feelings hurt, this should scare any actual conservative.

Wait ... you admit that Adam Griffin is an insufferable lefty hack and then simultaneously expect us to take his butthurt slander of an opposing party leader at face value, when he is clearly trying to split the rightwing vote? Why should any rightwinger listen to him? Hell, I've had him on ignore for years. If anything, the fact that he's emerging from his cave to sow discord suggests he's peeved that the conservatives might elect a (half)queer woman of colour president and discredit the idiotic trope of only the left being tolerant. I mean, its pretty fuking awful to suggest that the only reason a woman can obtain the presidency in atlasia is by being a slut, which is what Adam Griffin did. Adam Griffin's condemnation is practically an endorsement to a conservative.

The comments by Adam on the previous page were disgusting and I would trust that both Lumine and Rpryor, as the respectable statesmen that they are would thoroughly disavow such statements rather then crediting them with legitimacy and citing them for campaign purposes.
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« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2017, 01:21:22 pm »

Also I do owe Rpryor an apology for something I said during my "enthusiastic walk" the other night. I said he didn't attend a single NSC meeting while Vice President and my appointed Chair of the NSC.

I was incorrect.

He attended, once!
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« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2017, 01:44:23 pm »

Well, you can't say this campaign hasn't garnered a lot of attention!

I'll be drafting a speech on national security and our national defence soon, an issue in which I think we need a far more detailed debate, and more action considering the latest questionable actions of the Administration on the war in Korea:

International News

Korean War update September 24th
The Uk, and France have sent troops to go help South Korea defend Seoul to try and dive North Korean troops out of South Korea. Meanwhile Chinese troops have almost reached Pyongyang and look ready for a ground invasion of the city. China is noted to have grown frustrated with Atlasia; after the country is yet to send troops to fight North Korea.

Needless to say, it's disappointing and distressing to see we are not engaged as we should to win this war as early and decisively as possible.

I agree bicameralism was always a freaking travesty.

Indeed!

Why not reducing the number of representatives instead of abolishing it?

Personally I would also support this, but you'd achieve a target of less offices under the unicameral proposal I put forward. Still, cutting the House down by two or four members would be a good idea.
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« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2017, 01:47:37 pm »

Needless to say, it's disappointing and distressing to see we are not engaged as we should to win this war as early and decisively as possible.


Yes, well we tried to get you into the Senate for a reason. Tongue Elections do have consequences.
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« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2017, 01:53:59 pm »

Needless to say, it's disappointing and distressing to see we are not engaged as we should to win this war as early and decisively as possible.


Yes, well we tried to get you into the Senate for a reason. Tongue Elections do have consequences.

You'd think the President has the unilateral powers to declare war on a whim and fund the military by fiat.
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« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2017, 01:56:42 pm »

Also, for the record, I'm not interested in validating whatever Griffin says or efforts of his own.

I was very pleased to hear from the distance that Atlasia at last had a female President, something which clearly should have happened long ago. The idea of a resolute female President from the center-right seemed excellent at the time in which I rejoined.

That is partly why I wasn't pleased to learn that said Presidency came to be on account of two consecutive Presidential resignations which, combined with other distressing news I've heard, frankly seem very questionable.

I was even less pleased to see this large-scale attempt at portraying someone who was a Laborite until not long ago, and a member of the far-left not long ago, as the future of the Atlasian center-right. I simply fail to see how the President can truly espouse those values, unless a historic damascene conversion happened here.

It's not irresponsible conspiracy theories (at least not to me or others), so I feel free to make those criticisms as a citizen and as a Presidential candidate. It is also why I won't make false excuses about Yankee's criticism of my actions as Vice-President, because I can freely admit that is one of the few moments in which I've been inactive in office (with personal reasons for it, but still a mistake on my behalf).
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« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2017, 02:02:20 pm »

Lumine, I am sad to say that I must revoke my 2nd preference endorsements due to the vp pick, although I should've known this would've happened given rpryor tries to beg and steal his way into every possible position. If you had a chance of winning before, it is now down to 0.0% flat. Rpryor has been wholly inactive for several months now, I mean he wasn't even active as VP. BTW, what either of you probably don't know is that the position of VP is vastly different than back in January, if you are an inactive VP now you WILL be forced out. The position of VP is basically just as much, if not more work than either the Speaker of the House or the Senate PPT now, you must be heavily involved in congress. I also find it funny that the person who went to Labor because they thought "Wulfric is a disrespected joke and you are stupid for running him for Senate" is trying to lecture us about right wing politics, the same person who voted for Adam in a highly competitive Presidential race (well I guess we have that in common, if Adam were the labor nominee and Rpryor were the right wing nominee, I would vote for Adam!). I don't know what could possibly be passing through your head Lumine, in thinking that Rpryor as VP would serve to make Atlasia an any better place than it is now. Well, maybe this is your way of trying to destroy bicameralism by making it not work, after all a VP Rpryor would quite literally grind congress to a halt and make quite a case for your argument. I guess when you asked me "Isn't the game virtually dead?" a few weeks ago, I should've just said yes instead of arguing for the game, maybe then you wouldn't have made these odd choices since you actually seemed to think the game was "dead" even though we have record membership and activity.
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« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2017, 02:08:29 pm »

So, I hope you'll stop your "omg fhtagn used to be labor" attacks now:

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« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2017, 02:13:01 pm »

Lumine, I am sad to say that I must revoke my 2nd preference endorsements due to the vp pick, although I should've known this would've happened given rpryor tries to beg and steal his way into every possible position. If you had a chance of winning before, it is now down to 0.0% flat. Rpryor has been wholly inactive for several months now, I mean he wasn't even active as VP. BTW, what either of you probably don't know is that the position of VP is vastly different than back in January, if you are an inactive VP now you WILL be forced out. The position of VP is basically just as much, if not more work than either the Speaker of the House or the Senate PPT now, you must be heavily involved in congress.

Yes, if Rpryor conducted himself as VP as he did in my administration, he would probably be impeached now.

And Lumine will find it hard to turn back the clock to a time when the VP did nothing in time for that to not be the case.

This is what PiT does on a daily basis:
http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=271890.msg5819868#msg5819868

3 House Slots (Senate originated Bills), 3 Senate Slots (House Originated Bills), Any and all confirmation hearings, Tracking all bills passed in both Houses, verifying each bill passing both houses with a signature, before finally presenting them to the President for signature or veto.

This is a daily demanding job. That is why both the Labor and Fed tickets, have current/former PPTs on them. Like it not, this is the constitution and the law as it is now, and disagreement with it, doesn't and will not excuse incompetence until said law is changed.

We aren't turning back the clock to when the VP was inactive and pointless and Lumine pinned for its abolition once Nix pillaged the job of the responsibilities I had given it in 2013. The VP has a purpose now, it is not a place for inactive has-beens to retire to anymore. It is a job for active, Chamber Administrators: Speakers and PPTs and regional legislative Speakers.  
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 02:21:52 pm by People's Speaker North Carolina Yankee »Logged

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"A majority held in restraint by constitutional checks and limitations, and always changing easily with deliberate changes of popular opinions and sentiments, is the only true sovereign of a free people." - Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, emphasis mine.
Fmr. Pres. Griff
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« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2017, 02:21:47 pm »

Various and hilarious concern-trollings and mirror-holdings from a well-known crypto-fascist

Do you want PMs and logs to get leaked? Because that's how PMs and logs get leaked.

There's a very concrete paper trail and/or multiple people witness to conversations for everything I've said here - and don't think for a second that I was dumb enough not to consider people yelling "FIRST FEMALE PRESIDENT - SEXISM!" (as if some Constitution Party avatar cares, lol) and would actually say anything that I have said without plenty of actual backup in existence.

If at any point during my heyday there had been some male running for President who had been wooing, flirting with and taking advantage of one bigger fish after another to expedite their political career in Fantasyland, I'd be calling it out then, too - happily! It just never happened! Plenty of relationships have existed over the years here, but not in this context.

But anyway, as the Olds should accurately testify (if they're being honest!), I never go for the jugular with a knife made out of aluminium foil in my hand. I can't help it everybody is always messaging me, sharing content and telling me what's going on here, even after I've clearly walked away from here. Everything can be formally dug up and published in due time if the alternative is to accuse me of being a sexist and/or a liar.
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Vice President dfwlibertylover
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« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2017, 02:25:03 pm »

Various and hilarious concern-trollings and mirror-holdings from a well-known crypto-fascist

Do you want PMs and logs to get leaked? Because that's how PMs and logs get leaked.

There's a very concrete paper trail and/or multiple people witness to conversations for everything I've said here - and don't think for a second that I was dumb enough not to consider people yelling "FIRST FEMALE PRESIDENT - SEXISM!" (as if some Constitution Party avatar cares, lol) and would actually say anything that I have said without plenty of actual backup in existence.

If at any point during my heyday there had been some male running for President who had been wooing, flirting with and taking advantage of one bigger fish after another to expedite their political career in Fantasyland, I'd be calling it out then, too - happily! It just never happened! Plenty of relationships have existed over the years here, but not in this context.

But anyway, as the Olds should accurately testify (if they're being honest!), I never go for the jugular with a knife made out of aluminium foil in my hand. I can't help it everybody is always messaging me, sharing content and telling me what's going on here, even after I've clearly walked away from here. Everything can be formally dug up and published in due time if the alternative is to accuse me of being a sexist and/or a liar.
I have plenty of logs and such too, wanna dance?
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Fmr. Pres. Griff
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« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2017, 02:25:06 pm »

Oh, and to those trying to give poor innocent rpryor a hard time for voting for me in October 2016, it's important to remember that I won like one-third (or more?) of the conservative vote in that election. It was an absolute barnstorming, shit-slamming, domination election among a 60% conservative electorate.

And the Federalists lost in large part because they ran a generic candidate who nobody really asked for and who was far too much of an ideological wishy-washy to keep the party in check. Live and learn!
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