London acid attack injures at least six

[NewYorkExpress]

http://Six people have been injured after a noxious substance was thrown at a shopping centre

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Judging by the article, terrorism does not appear to be a concern here.

What dispute gets resolved using Acid?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Link doesn't work, but if it's a random act than it certainly is terrorism. A fifteen year old does not need to be in ISIS chat rooms to be a terrorist. If his goal was to inspire fear - regardless of whatever motive - he has committed a terrorist act.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Okay, before we have a s**tfest here just keep in mind three things:

1. It is not known whether these two teens are Muslims or of Muslim heritage.
2. Out of recent acid attacks in Britain, Muslims were among the victims as well.
3. While there is a troubling... more like dramatic rise in these attacks, it's neither a new nor foreign phenomenon in Britain. Such monstrosities dates back to the Victorian times.


"Terrorism" is a matter of definition. Usually we're referring to ideologically motivated violence/large-scale attacks, but Sanchez made a good point here.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Yeah, the recent acid attack phenomena was probably inspired by its use in certain communities, but by now is common across all ethnicities, mostly gang related. (although one of the odd things about jihadis is they often come from the ranks of petty criminals, so there is some overlap).

These guys are reported to be Somalians, so presumably Muslim, but not Islamist.

Link doesn't work, but if it's a random act than it certainly is terrorism. A fifteen year old does not need to be in ISIS chat rooms to be a terrorist. If his goal was to inspire fear - regardless of whatever motive - he has committed a terrorist act.

I dunno - random thugs beating people up for the hell of it without even the pretence of ideological cover to me doesn't count as terror, otherwise half of all violent crime would count as terrorism.

[Tintrlvr]

Link doesn't work, but if it's a random act than it certainly is terrorism. A fifteen year old does not need to be in ISIS chat rooms to be a terrorist. If his goal was to inspire fear - regardless of whatever motive - he has committed a terrorist act.

This is obvious nonsense. Terrorism has to have an ideological (political/religious/ethnic) motivation. Random gang violence to inspire fear is not terrorism.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Link doesn't work, but if it's a random act than it certainly is terrorism. A fifteen year old does not need to be in ISIS chat rooms to be a terrorist. If his goal was to inspire fear - regardless of whatever motive - he has committed a terrorist act.

This is obvious nonsense. Terrorism has to have an ideological (political/religious/ethnic) motivation. Random gang violence to inspire fear is not terrorism.

Yes it is. Terrorism is a tactic. It can be used by anyone against the general public for any reason. A Mexican cartel setting off a bomb in LA for example would be a terrorist act, even if a criminal gang rather than an ideological outfit set it off. Terrorism is a symptom of a larger problem, whether that problem be crime, religious fanaticism. Only mental illness or an individual motive (say for example a feud between the attackers/victims) preclude an act designed to terrorize the public from being labeled terrorism.

Dylan Roof for example is a terrorist. The church shooter in TN may very well have just been mentally ill. The Houston cop killer was a terrorist. James Holmes was mentally ill. See the contextual differences?

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Yes but random people who think attacking people is fun aren't doing so as a tactic, anymore than an alligator attack is counted as terrorism. Petty criminals sometimes get ideological cover (and indeed under much of the faux piety of many terrorist groups, there is a gangster level of drugs smuggling and racketeering that often manages to usurp the initial political goal) but not all petty criminals are terrorists.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I'm sure a lot of thugs would prefer to think of themselves as "terrorists", which suggest something less undignified than a common criminals.

I'm doubtful that singular acts without political/ideological motives are fitting the definition of terrorism. But how do we classify, let's say, somebody like Olga Hepnarová, who had no political/ideological motives per se, but conducted her attack in a way and a scale that is now considered a terrorist trademark.  

I have hard time considering a cop killer, who committed the murder in course or in relation to purely criminal activities, as "terrorist".

[Famous Mortimer]

Okay, before we have a s**tfest here just keep in mind three things:

1. It is not known whether these two teens are Muslims or of Muslim heritage.
2. Out of recent acid attacks in Britain, Muslims were among the victims as well.
3. While there is a troubling... more like dramatic rise in these attacks, it's neither a new nor foreign phenomenon in Britain. Such monstrosities dates back to the Victorian times.


"Terrorism" is a matter of definition. Usually we're referring to ideologically motivated violence/large-scale attacks, but Sanchez made a good point here.

1. It's possible they aren't but it's extremely likely they are. If someone shot up a BLM rally, you wouldn't object to people making the reasonable assumption that it was probably a White guy, even though there would be a small chance it wasn't in that case too.
2. Yes, Muslims were victims of violence by other Muslims.
3. You're saying we shouldn't address the fact that Muslim immigration is the cause of the increase because attacks occasionally happened in the past. That's like saying if a model of car is prone to randomly explode, there shouldn't be a recall because cars have caught on fire before in the past.

I'm sure you'll go ahead and delete this comment though.

You should not be the moderator of a politics forum if you believe that the most important issue of the era (third world immigration) should never be discussed critically.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Willips these acid attacks aren't just by Muslims (or even really majority Muslims). This isn't the "honour" attacks you get in third world countries of women being attacked by men, this is gang warfare.

I mean just with a few pages of "acid attack arrests" I got this motley crew:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35996945

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/23/arthur-collins-charged-over-acid-attack-in-east-london-nightclub

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/tv-jury-looks-again-at-case-of-bradford-acid-attack-getaway-driver-1-8575804

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/burglar-acid-attack-jailed-18-years-gerard-whelan-69-year-old-woman-home-ilford-a7965761.html

http://www.lowestoftjournal.co.uk/news/man-jailed-for-acid-attack-on-adele-bellis-wins-first-stage-of-bid-to-clear-his-name-1-4926583

http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/local_news/southend/14382034.Pair_sentenced_to_8_and_12_years_for_acid_attack_which_scarred_dad_for_life/

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/notorious-criminal-william-basil-burns-10690684

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/john-tomlin-east-london-acid-attack-21st-birthday-london-cousins-resham-khan-jameel-mukhtar-a7955221.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brothers-arrested-over-acid-attack-6537298

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2546518/Jealous-friend-spent-years-obsessing-Naomi-Onis-looks-tried-steal-boyfriend-hurling-acid-face.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/katie-piper-acid-attack-thug-6341842

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3145178/katie-leong-sulphuric-acid-sleeping-lover-caged/

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/two-london-teenagers-found-guilty-of-throwing-acid-in-face-of-simon-cowells-former-chauffeur-a3086036.html

That's quite a lot (majority) whites, three or four mixed race people, a Kenyan and a Chinese girl. In fact the Somalian gang was the first obviously Muslim group that I saw.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

"Acid attack = reasonable to assume it was done by a Muslim" talking point is, beside other issues, not based in reality. 

[Tintrlvr]

Link doesn't work, but if it's a random act than it certainly is terrorism. A fifteen year old does not need to be in ISIS chat rooms to be a terrorist. If his goal was to inspire fear - regardless of whatever motive - he has committed a terrorist act.

This is obvious nonsense. Terrorism has to have an ideological (political/religious/ethnic) motivation. Random gang violence to inspire fear is not terrorism.

Yes it is. Terrorism is a tactic. It can be used by anyone against the general public for any reason. A Mexican cartel setting off a bomb in LA for example would be a terrorist act, even if a criminal gang rather than an ideological outfit set it off. Terrorism is a symptom of a larger problem, whether that problem be crime, religious fanaticism. Only mental illness or an individual motive (say for example a feud between the attackers/victims) preclude an act designed to terrorize the public from being labeled terrorism.

Dylan Roof for example is a terrorist. The church shooter in TN may very well have just been mentally ill. The Houston cop killer was a terrorist. James Holmes was mentally ill. See the contextual differences?

Yes -- The difference is that Dylan Roof and the cop killer had ideological motivations for their actions, while the others did not. Your insistence that gang violence is terrorism has no basis in reality.

[Famous Mortimer]

Willips these acid attacks aren't just by Muslims (or even really majority Muslims). This isn't the "honour" attacks you get in third world countries of women being attacked by men, this is gang warfare.

I mean just with a few pages of "acid attack arrests" I got this motley crew:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35996945

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/23/arthur-collins-charged-over-acid-attack-in-east-london-nightclub

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/tv-jury-looks-again-at-case-of-bradford-acid-attack-getaway-driver-1-8575804

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/burglar-acid-attack-jailed-18-years-gerard-whelan-69-year-old-woman-home-ilford-a7965761.html

http://www.lowestoftjournal.co.uk/news/man-jailed-for-acid-attack-on-adele-bellis-wins-first-stage-of-bid-to-clear-his-name-1-4926583

http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/local_news/southend/14382034.Pair_sentenced_to_8_and_12_years_for_acid_attack_which_scarred_dad_for_life/

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/notorious-criminal-william-basil-burns-10690684

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/john-tomlin-east-london-acid-attack-21st-birthday-london-cousins-resham-khan-jameel-mukhtar-a7955221.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brothers-arrested-over-acid-attack-6537298

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2546518/Jealous-friend-spent-years-obsessing-Naomi-Onis-looks-tried-steal-boyfriend-hurling-acid-face.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/katie-piper-acid-attack-thug-6341842

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3145178/katie-leong-sulphuric-acid-sleeping-lover-caged/

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/two-london-teenagers-found-guilty-of-throwing-acid-in-face-of-simon-cowells-former-chauffeur-a3086036.html

That's quite a lot (majority) whites, three or four mixed race people, a Kenyan and a Chinese girl. In fact the Somalian gang was the first obviously Muslim group that I saw.

I stand corrected. The increase seems out of nowhere then. Are there any other theories as to causes?

Also, thank you for counting a post you disagreed with with facts. That's what you're supposed to do, rather than have the post deleted.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

The popular theory is that is it came after an increased crackdown on guns and knives meaning criminals search for an incognito weapon, and once higher ups in the organised crime and semi-organised rings realised the acid's power as away of intimidating rivals it sort of exploded, to the extent it's become copycatted by all sorts of people.

Most of it is male on male, and the victims don't seek prosecution, presumably out of fear of retribution.

[Silent Hunter]

Yes but random people who think attacking people is fun aren't doing so as a tactic, anymore than an alligator attack is counted as terrorism. Petty criminals sometimes get ideological cover (and indeed under much of the faux piety of many terrorist groups, there is a gangster level of drugs smuggling and racketeering that often manages to usurp the initial political goal) but not all petty criminals are terrorists.

Also, terrorist groups will use crime as a means of raising money (the IRA for example).

[Tintrlvr]

The popular theory is that is it came after an increased crackdown on guns and knives meaning criminals search for an incognito weapon, and once higher ups in the organised crime and semi-organised rings realised the acid's power as away of intimidating rivals it sort of exploded, to the extent it's become copycatted by all sorts of people.

Most of it is male on male, and the victims don't seek prosecution, presumably out of fear of retribution.

Or because they were engaged in illegal activity at the time/going to the police requires admitting to illegal activity, and the police may view the victims' drug dealing/arms dealing/pimping/whatever as being a bigger crime than acid attacks and not guarantee them a deal.