Do you support Catalan independence from Spain?

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Yes. Spain is an artificial nation based on Castilian supremacy.

TIL all nations aren't "artificial."

[Kingpoleon]

Yes. Spain is an artificial nation based on Castilian supremacy.

TIL all nations aren't "artificial."

Spain was based on the subjugation of the cultures of Aragon and, to a lesser extent, Grenada - so much so that the Aragonese language, culture and history is tragically gone.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

No. Catalan Nationalism seems to be mainly based on a smug superiority over southerners, like if the Northern League pretended to be left.

Nationalism is a curse, especially by thr "left". Imagine if all those young leftist activists matching for yet another nation-state put their efforts into something that actually helped the cause?

What about Palestinian nationalism?

also bad, as is Israeli nationalism (i.e. Zionism of an exclusive character). I do not see why either ordinary Israelis or Palestinians will be helped out by a "two-state solution" which bifurcates a territory which should be a home for both groups of people into two weaker, gerrymanderd states at  permanent odds with each other. If Jews wish to settle in the West Bank and Gaza that is their right, and if Palestinians wish to return to their homeland that is also their right. Unfortunately, would require overturning all the nationalists on both sides with no interest in uniting people, and only in the right-wing identity politics that proclaims that "nation-states" should be created to be safe spaces for an ethnicity or language.

[America Needs R'hllor]

No. Catalan Nationalism seems to be mainly based on a smug superiority over southerners, like if the Northern League pretended to be left.

Nationalism is a curse, especially by thr "left". Imagine if all those young leftist activists matching for yet another nation-state put their efforts into something that actually helped the cause?

What about Palestinian nationalism?

also bad, as is Israeli nationalism (i.e. Zionism of an exclusive character). I do not see why either ordinary Israelis or Palestinians will be helped out by a "two-state solution" which bifurcates a territory which should be a home for both groups of people into two weaker, gerrymanderd states at  permanent odds with each other. If Jews wish to settle in the West Bank and Gaza that is their right, and if Palestinians wish to return to their homeland that is also their right. Unfortunately, would require overturning all the nationalists on both sides with no interest in uniting people, and only in the right-wing identity politics that proclaims that "nation-states" should be created to be safe spaces for an ethnicity or language.

Jews did not fare well as a minority. In fact, they fared terribly, murdered and abused in countless pogroms and then in a genocide.
Can you really not see why do we want one state where we're the majority?

[Zinneke]

No but its ridiculous how assymetrical Spanish "federalism" has become and it re-ignites the old grievances.

[Helsinkian]

Julian Assange seems to be a supporter.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

No. Catalan Nationalism seems to be mainly based on a smug superiority over southerners, like if the Northern League pretended to be left.

Nationalism is a curse, especially by thr "left". Imagine if all those young leftist activists matching for yet another nation-state put their efforts into something that actually helped the cause?

What about Palestinian nationalism?

also bad, as is Israeli nationalism (i.e. Zionism of an exclusive character). I do not see why either ordinary Israelis or Palestinians will be helped out by a "two-state solution" which bifurcates a territory which should be a home for both groups of people into two weaker, gerrymanderd states at  permanent odds with each other. If Jews wish to settle in the West Bank and Gaza that is their right, and if Palestinians wish to return to their homeland that is also their right. Unfortunately, would require overturning all the nationalists on both sides with no interest in uniting people, and only in the right-wing identity politics that proclaims that "nation-states" should be created to be safe spaces for an ethnicity or language.

You can't see how Palestinians would be helped by an end to the occupation? Seriously?

[Intell]

No. It's time to stop breaking independent countries into small, weak pieces. Not a fan of "what the people want", either. The people's nationalistic feelings are easily manipulated by politicians.

If not "what the people want", then who??? Authorities? What if i don't give a damn about them??

On issues of Independence, if the conquest was recent or if the situation becomes unsustainable and painful for both sides, the elected leaders should negotiate on terms. If the public likes these terms, they'll keep these leaders in office or vote for them in the first place.
I'm a supporter of representative democracy on issues that require a clear knowledge of issues and consequences, especially if said issues cause strong emotions that are exploitable by populist leaders, such as nationalism. Brexit was a very obvious case of the people choosing something because of exploitation of their emotions and sometimes blatant lies from the Yes side, a choice many are regretting now that the consequences are clearer.

Proof would be nice pls.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-leave-voters-remain-worst-event-2016-eu-referendum-european-union-a7500571.html

Admittedly, most Yes voters probably stubbornly stand with their decisions, just like Trump voters. But I do think some are regretting it now that the nationalistic lies about healthcare were exposed. Referendums on issues such as independence let populist politicians exploit emotions and lie, and that is something I can't support. If thr people of Britain truly wanted Brexit, thry should've gotten Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage elected.

Now compare that to people who would now vote leave, and you'd have the exact same % of people who vote for Yes. Of course democratic referendums in regards to the interest of one's country is now exploiting emotions and lie.

Again you're making a logical fallacy saying people who wanted brexit wanted Farage or Johnson. Leave voters came from different parties, Labour, Conservative, UKIP, SNP, LibDems. Most of these voters kept with their own party, and conservatives voted for Theresa May, who afterwards was very pro brexit, just as they would've voted for Johnson.

[Kingpoleon]

No. Catalan Nationalism seems to be mainly based on a smug superiority over southerners, like if the Northern League pretended to be left.

Nationalism is a curse, especially by thr "left". Imagine if all those young leftist activists matching for yet another nation-state put their efforts into something that actually helped the cause?

What about Palestinian nationalism?

also bad, as is Israeli nationalism (i.e. Zionism of an exclusive character). I do not see why either ordinary Israelis or Palestinians will be helped out by a "two-state solution" which bifurcates a territory which should be a home for both groups of people into two weaker, gerrymanderd states at  permanent odds with each other. If Jews wish to settle in the West Bank and Gaza that is their right, and if Palestinians wish to return to their homeland that is also their right. Unfortunately, would require overturning all the nationalists on both sides with no interest in uniting people, and only in the right-wing identity politics that proclaims that "nation-states" should be created to be safe spaces for an ethnicity or language.

Pretty sure that opinion is shared by Benny Begin...

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

No. Catalan Nationalism seems to be mainly based on a smug superiority over southerners, like if the Northern League pretended to be left.

Nationalism is a curse, especially by thr "left". Imagine if all those young leftist activists matching for yet another nation-state put their efforts into something that actually helped the cause?

What about Palestinian nationalism?

also bad, as is Israeli nationalism (i.e. Zionism of an exclusive character). I do not see why either ordinary Israelis or Palestinians will be helped out by a "two-state solution" which bifurcates a territory which should be a home for both groups of people into two weaker, gerrymanderd states at  permanent odds with each other. If Jews wish to settle in the West Bank and Gaza that is their right, and if Palestinians wish to return to their homeland that is also their right. Unfortunately, would require overturning all the nationalists on both sides with no interest in uniting people, and only in the right-wing identity politics that proclaims that "nation-states" should be created to be safe spaces for an ethnicity or language.

You can't see how Palestinians would be helped by an end to the occupation? Seriously?

Yes. Entrenchment of the two state solution would be a reinforcement of the notion that two peoples of different ethnicity cannot live in the same country because reasons, and so there would be forced a great movement with ordinary Palestinians being forced from their homes and businesses to live in their new "homeland", in reality a tool designed to enrich a small unrepresentative later of elite. The new state will be underfunded, weak and literally divided. Palestinians who work in Israel will continue to be stopped and checked constantly. Jerusalem will enjoy artificially and crudely partitioned. The Gaza blockade will continue. And the two new weak states will be at constant loggerheads anyway (yeah, so will the one state solution, but there are no good answers here).

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

No. Catalan Nationalism seems to be mainly based on a smug superiority over southerners, like if the Northern League pretended to be left.

Nationalism is a curse, especially by thr "left". Imagine if all those young leftist activists matching for yet another nation-state put their efforts into something that actually helped the cause?

What about Palestinian nationalism?

also bad, as is Israeli nationalism (i.e. Zionism of an exclusive character). I do not see why either ordinary Israelis or Palestinians will be helped out by a "two-state solution" which bifurcates a territory which should be a home for both groups of people into two weaker, gerrymanderd states at  permanent odds with each other. If Jews wish to settle in the West Bank and Gaza that is their right, and if Palestinians wish to return to their homeland that is also their right. Unfortunately, would require overturning all the nationalists on both sides with no interest in uniting people, and only in the right-wing identity politics that proclaims that "nation-states" should be created to be safe spaces for an ethnicity or language.

Pretty sure that opinion is shared by Benny Begin...

Depends. A lot of right-wing Israelis claim they want something similar, but then give the game away when they argue that Palestinians only get partial rights or whatever. The apartheid analogy is nearly always moronic when it comes to Israel but the idea of Arab autonomous states is uncomfortably Bantustany.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

No. Catalan Nationalism seems to be mainly based on a smug superiority over southerners, like if the Northern League pretended to be left.

Nationalism is a curse, especially by thr "left". Imagine if all those young leftist activists matching for yet another nation-state put their efforts into something that actually helped the cause?

What about Palestinian nationalism?

also bad, as is Israeli nationalism (i.e. Zionism of an exclusive character). I do not see why either ordinary Israelis or Palestinians will be helped out by a "two-state solution" which bifurcates a territory which should be a home for both groups of people into two weaker, gerrymanderd states at  permanent odds with each other. If Jews wish to settle in the West Bank and Gaza that is their right, and if Palestinians wish to return to their homeland that is also their right. Unfortunately, would require overturning all the nationalists on both sides with no interest in uniting people, and only in the right-wing identity politics that proclaims that "nation-states" should be created to be safe spaces for an ethnicity or language.

Jews did not fare well as a minority. In fact, they fared terribly, murdered and abused in countless pogroms and then in a genocide.
Can you really not see why do we want one state where we're the majority?

I do see, but I don't understand how that can be done without seriously dodgy activities. De facto, Israel and Palestine are - like it or not - quasi-unified. Better to start planning out binationalism now and how minority protections would work, rather than spend the new two decades twiddling your thumbs until Israel-proper is Arab-majority.

[Dr. MB]

No opinion. I'd support whatever they decide on.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

No. Catalan Nationalism seems to be mainly based on a smug superiority over southerners, like if the Northern League pretended to be left.

Nationalism is a curse, especially by thr "left". Imagine if all those young leftist activists matching for yet another nation-state put their efforts into something that actually helped the cause?

What about Palestinian nationalism?

also bad, as is Israeli nationalism (i.e. Zionism of an exclusive character). I do not see why either ordinary Israelis or Palestinians will be helped out by a "two-state solution" which bifurcates a territory which should be a home for both groups of people into two weaker, gerrymanderd states at  permanent odds with each other. If Jews wish to settle in the West Bank and Gaza that is their right, and if Palestinians wish to return to their homeland that is also their right. Unfortunately, would require overturning all the nationalists on both sides with no interest in uniting people, and only in the right-wing identity politics that proclaims that "nation-states" should be created to be safe spaces for an ethnicity or language.

You can't see how Palestinians would be helped by an end to the occupation? Seriously?

Yes. Entrenchment of the two state solution would be a reinforcement of the notion that two peoples of different ethnicity cannot live in the same country because reasons, and so there would be forced a great movement with ordinary Palestinians being forced from their homes and businesses to live in their new "homeland", in reality a tool designed to enrich a small unrepresentative later of elite. The new state will be underfunded, weak and literally divided. Palestinians who work in Israel will continue to be stopped and checked constantly. Jerusalem will enjoy artificially and crudely partitioned. The Gaza blockade will continue. And the two new weak states will be at constant loggerheads anyway (yeah, so will the one state solution, but there are no good answers here).

This is a cute stance for an armchair intellectual living thousands of miles away in safety. Go and tell Palestinians whose homes are being seized and bulldozed by the Israeli state that living under a Palestinian government would be no better for them. I'm sure they would agree with you that a "crude" partition of Jerusalem is worse than being victims of ethnic cleansing.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Seeing as a two state solution will almost certainly result in ethnic cleansing with full complicity of both the Palestinian and Israeli governments, its hardly a "cute" statement. The two state solution is a justification of the idea the Israeli state must be a majority Jewish one, or else; therefore the many Palestinians that work and live in Israel will be seen as a threat. Partition flat out doesn't work.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Yes, if the majority want it. And the way Spain handles this makes me side with the separatists even more. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

This. The Spanish government's response this weekend was deplorable.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Yup.