Are the "Bernie wing" and "Clinton wing" of the Democratic Party real things?
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  Are the "Bernie wing" and "Clinton wing" of the Democratic Party real things?
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Question: Are the "Bernie wing" and "Clinton wing" of the Democratic Party real things?
#1
Yes
 
#2
No
 
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Author Topic: Are the "Bernie wing" and "Clinton wing" of the Democratic Party real things?  (Read 801 times)
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BRTD
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« on: October 17, 2017, 07:50:36 AM »

No they are not. The party did not undergo a massive restructuring two years ago where every single member aligned themselves based on who they voted for in the primary. These terms are getting pretty annoying.
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Torie
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« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2017, 07:58:58 AM »

I think they are real, with the divide being between establishment and anti-establishment Dems. The Bernie folks tend to be more populist. But that divide is far less salient, then a somewhat similar divide in the Pub party, that has the potential to fundamentally change the Pub party (to the extent it has not already).
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President Punxsutawney Phil
TimTurner
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« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2017, 08:00:18 AM »

I would say yes.
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2017, 08:04:02 AM »

Yes.

Actually, there are five kinds of Democrats.
1. Blue Dog Dixiecrats (like Clinton, Lieberman, and Casey)
2. Conservatives (or moderates)
3. Libertarians
4. Liberals
5. Progressives (like Bernie)
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2017, 08:06:28 AM »

"The 2016 Democratic Party presidential primaries and caucuses between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders was largely a fight along ideological lines between the two. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factions_in_the_Democratic_Party_(United_States)#Ideological_wings
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Cathcon
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« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2017, 08:53:12 AM »

Of course not. If they are, this was the first time the two faced off, and do not yet warrant generalizability.
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JA
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« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2017, 09:19:03 AM »

Of course not. If they are, this was the first time the two faced off, and do not yet warrant generalizability.

I'd say Cath's view comes closest to my own. We must wait to see whether this division persists and deepens or dissipates; one election cycle and the following year, combined with no structural splits or organized social movements like the Tea Party, does not a party civil war make. There's the potential for it to worsen, definitely, and lead to a situation like what happened in the GOP, but it hasn't gotten anywhere near that bad so far and, assuming party leadership doesn't intentionally exacerbate the problem, it won't reach that point.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2017, 09:50:55 AM »

Of course not. If they are, this was the first time the two faced off, and do not yet warrant generalizability.

And, more importantly, the LAST time (unless Clinton faces Sanders in the 2020 primaries).  Clinton voters were tons of totally different types of people, as were Sanders voters.
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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2017, 11:46:12 AM »

Exactly. The idea that every single Democrat falls into one of two categories, and which category they fall under is based solely on their 2016 primary preference is ABSURD.
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« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2017, 11:56:26 AM »

Of course not. If they are, this was the first time the two faced off, and do not yet warrant generalizability.

And, more importantly, the LAST time (unless Clinton faces Sanders in the 2020 primaries).  Clinton voters were tons of totally different types of people, as were Sanders voters.

By which I meant it was the first time that the two coalitions (not candidates) were diametrically opposed in a primary fight. It remains to be seen if this configuration will persist for the long term.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2017, 12:22:55 PM »

Of course not. If they are, this was the first time the two faced off, and do not yet warrant generalizability.

And, more importantly, the LAST time (unless Clinton faces Sanders in the 2020 primaries).  Clinton voters were tons of totally different types of people, as were Sanders voters.

By which I meant it was the first time that the two coalitions (not candidates) were diametrically opposed in a primary fight. It remains to be seen if this configuration will persist for the long term.

And I don't think it will.  The only way it would "persist" is if Clinton's "wing" and Sanders' "wing" really had strong disagreements over the issues, and they don't.  I predict a relatively scattered field in 2020, TBH.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2017, 01:35:17 PM »

There has always been a fight between liberals and leftists.

This implies all of Clinton's voters shared her ideology exactly, as did Sanders' his.  That's clearly false.
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« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2017, 01:38:31 PM »

There has always been a fight between liberals and leftists.

This implies all of Clinton's voters shared her ideology exactly, as did Sanders' his.  That's clearly false.

Sanders didn't win the Michigan primary with the help of only leftists, assuredly.
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White Trash
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« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2017, 08:02:46 PM »

Among elected officials, there isn't much of a divide. You have a handful of outliers that try to push the party in the certain direction, but beyond that the party is pretty unified. Among voters the story is completely different. Democratic voters are becoming increasingly divided along populist (but not necessarily progressive) and establishment lines.
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bagelman
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« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2017, 10:13:43 PM »

There has always been a fight between liberals and leftists.

This implies all of Clinton's voters shared her ideology exactly, as did Sanders' his.  That's clearly false.

Sanders didn't win the Michigan primary with the help of only leftists, assuredly.

Or the Oklahoma primary. Were every single one of those who voted for him just trying to sabotage Clinton? No.
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Leinad
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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2017, 01:21:31 AM »

Party "wings" are only partially real--it's not like everyone is forced to sign up with a specific faction. People can freely line up with one group on one thing and another (maybe even in a different party) on another thing--basically most people aren't nearly as ideologically rigid as we tend to classify them on here.

As far as these "wings," I would say they are merely a manifestation of existing divides and coalitions of minor factions within the party. Loosely I suppose that's establishment + minorities vs. leftists + populists (I could be misreading this but I think that's roughly it). Of course the Atlas demographics generally draw from millennials (a left-skewing group) and/or upper-middle-class "political" types (mostly white and anti-populist), so it creates an illusion on this forum of it being purely establishment vs. leftists.
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2017, 03:50:55 AM »
« Edited: October 18, 2017, 03:59:32 AM by Statilius the Epicurean »

Rural conservative-identifying Oklahomans who are anti-gun control are without a doubt on the same wing of the Democratic party as liberal college students in Massachusetts who want free tuition. This is Warren's base.

Likewise, the 70-year old black evangelical woman from rural Georgia is definitely aligned with the young gay male lawyer on Wall Street. Booker will win them both for exactly the same reason in 2020, because they both voted for Clinton!!
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Starry Eyed Jagaloon
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« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2017, 10:42:27 AM »

are Republicans. The few Democrats in Oklahoma are quite left wing.
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« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2017, 10:45:25 AM »
« Edited: October 18, 2017, 10:47:10 AM by Homage to Catalonia »

are Republicans. The few Democrats in Oklahoma are quite left wing.

Are you referring to those who are registered Democrats or those who consistently vote Democrat? Because at least until very recently (if not still) most voters in Oklahoma were registered Democrats.

Also, just as a way of knowing, the Panhandle went from supporting Hillary in 2008 primaries, to Randall F-king Terry in 2012 to Bernie in 2016. And Democratic voters, as opposed to those who are for some reason still registered Democrats, are a rarity there.

Certain groups of voters in OK or WV didn't vote for Bernie, but against Hillary (AKA "muh establishment, Obama's third term"). They were occasional fellow travelers at best, not members of Sanders' wing, if such thing even exists the way many people seems to think.
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« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2017, 02:40:43 PM »

There are divides, but that might not be the best way of explaining them.  Just like "establishment" and "populist" are terrible terms to divide the GOP- I wouldn't consider myself either of those two.
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Dr. MB
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« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2017, 03:56:38 PM »

Each "wing" is made up of a few distinct groups.

"Bernie Sanders Wing"
Progressive Democrats - the core
Young voters (under 30)
Left-libertarians
Socialists
Anti-establishment Democrats
Rural white working class
'08 Obama supporters
etc.

"Hillary Clinton Wing"
Moderate or traditional liberal Democrats
Old-style feminists
Older Democrats, especially older black Democrats
Women in their late 30s or above
Liberal elite
Democratic establishment
'08 Clinton supporters
Big-state Democrats
Blue Dogs
etc.
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« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2017, 08:15:23 PM »

No. The "divide" has been overstated by supporters of Sanders to give their personal feelings more legitimacy. The 2020 primaries will show that.
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2017, 09:17:38 PM »

No. The "divide" has been overstated by supporters of Sanders to give their personal feelings more legitimacy. The 2020 primaries will show that.
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BRTD
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« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2020, 10:27:11 AM »

Interesting to see what people think now.
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« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2020, 10:57:39 AM »

I would say yes, with caveat that Democrats are more split between Blue Dogs (Manchin, Cuellar), New Dems (Ron Kind, Max Rose), progressives (Warren, Sherrod Brown), and socialists (Sanders, AOC).

Biden is actually someone I don't think would fit in any of these categories. He ran as a fairly non-ideological pragmatist candidate, and although his Senate record would likely put him in the New Dem category, the political climate has changed a lot since he left the Senate.

I am hoping, but not expecting, Biden to not let McConnell call the shots for the next four years. I'm not yet convinced that he's learned anything from the Obama years, but if he plays his cards right he could end up being the next LBJ or Konrad Adenauer: an elder statesman who entered office with low expectations but nonetheless managed to have a transformative impact on politics.
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