Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
January 16, 2019, 10:16:44 pm
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Be sure to enable your "Ultimate Profile" for even more goodies on your profile page!

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion
| |-+  Presidential Election Process (Moderator: muon2)
| | |-+  Electing someone who won't give up their existing office
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: Electing someone who won't give up their existing office  (Read 3210 times)
Mr. Morden
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 38,203
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: October 25, 2017, 02:18:12 pm »

Suppose hypothetically that no one had won an electoral college majority in November of last year, with a bunch of Republican faithless electors voting for Paul Ryan.  So the House chooses between Clinton, Trump, and Ryan, while the Senate picks the VP from between Kaine and Pence (presumably going with Pence).

Now let's suppose that the House Republicans actually elect Ryan as president, but Ryan says that he actually doesn't want it.  He won't resign his House seat in order to take office as president.  Since it's illegal for him to hold both offices at once, I guess Pence then becomes president?  Would he take over for the full four year term, or could Ryan, at any moment, change his mind, and resign his House seat in order to become president?  Or would the House's election of Ryan, who's still in Congress and not quitting, be counted as invalid, and thus they'd be free to revote until someone gets a majority?
Logged

My magnum opus is now complete.  Read the complete "The Adventures of Hobo Orgy Guy & Blondie" (now in paperback).

What is your opinion of this thread?

Being a moderator is basically like one giant party.  Except you're the one ruining the party and everyone hates you.
VirginiŠ
Virginia C
Modadmin
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13,542
Ukraine


P P
View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2017, 03:24:44 pm »

I thought that once the House vote was taken, Ryan would become president and automatically lose his seat. If he didn't want the presidency, then he could resign, but he would still no longer be a member of the House. IIRC, the constitution doesn't spell out a process where they can decline. They just become the holder of that office.
Logged

Kalwejt
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 51,272


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2017, 05:53:23 pm »

I thought that once the House vote was taken, Ryan would become president and automatically lose his seat. If he didn't want the presidency, then he could resign, but he would still no longer be a member of the House.

Interestingly, he could still be a Speaker, even after losing his seat, if the House re-elects him to the post.
Logged

Mr. Morden
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 38,203
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2017, 01:24:35 pm »

I thought that once the House vote was taken, Ryan would become president and automatically lose his seat. If he didn't want the presidency, then he could resign, but he would still no longer be a member of the House.

Really?  Because here's Wiki on the case law of the constitutional bar on holding two offices at once:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineligibility_Clause

Quote
Among the earliest questions to be addressed under the clause was whether a person serving as a United States Attorney could continue to serve in that capacity after being elected to a seat in Congress. In 1816, Samuel Herrick was elected to the 15th United States Congress while still serving as U.S. Attorney for the District of Ohio. He was not allowed to take his seat until the House of Representatives had determined whether his service as a U.S. Attorney created a conflict under the clause.

It sounds like because his eligibility was in dispute, he was not allowed to take his new seat in Congress until the eligibility question was resolved, which is different from saying that the election to Congress would automatically quit him out of his old job.  Presumably, it would work the same for POTUS as with Congress?
Logged

My magnum opus is now complete.  Read the complete "The Adventures of Hobo Orgy Guy & Blondie" (now in paperback).

What is your opinion of this thread?

Being a moderator is basically like one giant party.  Except you're the one ruining the party and everyone hates you.
Figs
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,670


Political Matrix
E: -6.32, S: -7.83


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2017, 02:38:12 pm »

I thought that once the House vote was taken, Ryan would become president and automatically lose his seat. If he didn't want the presidency, then he could resign, but he would still no longer be a member of the House. IIRC, the constitution doesn't spell out a process where they can decline. They just become the holder of that office.

I read the 1947 Presidential Succession Act as saying the Speaker would become president upon resignation of his office, implying that he could decline to resign and pass succession on to the next person. It does look to me, though, like once it gets down to the cabinet level, succession is automatic.
Logged
Southern Dep. Speaker Dwarven Dragon
Wulfric
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20,150
United States


Political Matrix
E: -1.68, S: 1.22

P P

View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2018, 03:56:11 pm »

I thought that once the House vote was taken, Ryan would become president and automatically lose his seat. If he didn't want the presidency, then he could resign, but he would still no longer be a member of the House. IIRC, the constitution doesn't spell out a process where they can decline. They just become the holder of that office.

I read the 1947 Presidential Succession Act as saying the Speaker would become president upon resignation of his office, implying that he could decline to resign and pass succession on to the next person. It does look to me, though, like once it gets down to the cabinet level, succession is automatic.

That law refers to succession after the President resigns or dies, so I don't think it applies to a case where Congress elects the house speaker to the presidency. Those who leave office at the end of their term don't formally resign, they lose power automatically.

------

The relevant part of the Constitution here doesn't quite automatically make Ryan President, he could always refuse to agree to the oath of office. And I don't think it automatically resigns him from his current office either - when people in state office are elected to federal office, they have to formally resign their state office before taking office. When Obama was elected president, he had to formally resign from the Senate. So it seems like Ryan could just say no to the presidential oath of office, never resign the speakership, and remain as-is. Pence would become acting president for however long it took the house to decide between Clinton and Trump - although I'm not quite clear on one thing - with Ryan out of the picture as far as the EC goes, does the 4th place finisher come into play? - in real life, an EV was cast for Ron Paul. If that still happens here, maybe he becomes an option for the house after Ryan bows out.

Do we have any actual experts on constitutional law here?
Logged

Figs
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,670


Political Matrix
E: -6.32, S: -7.83


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2018, 08:07:03 am »

My goodness, of course youíre right about that. I donít know why, but I think seeing a scenario where the speaker succeeded to the presidency I immediately jumped into presidential succession act mode. Thanks for the correction.
Logged
J. J.
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 32,810
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2018, 11:17:11 am »


The relevant part of the Constitution here doesn't quite automatically make Ryan President, he could always refuse to agree to the oath of office. And I don't think it automatically resigns him from his current office either - when people in state office are elected to federal office, they have to formally resign their state office before taking office. When Obama was elected president, he had to formally resign from the Senate. So it seems like Ryan could just say no to the presidential oath of office, never resign the speakership, and remain as-is. Pence would become acting president for however long it took the house to decide between Clinton and Trump - although I'm not quite clear on one thing - with Ryan out of the picture as far as the EC goes, does the 4th place finisher come into play? - in real life, an EV was cast for Ron Paul. If that still happens here, maybe he becomes an option for the house after Ryan bows out.

Do we have any actual experts on constitutional law here?

Collin Powell had three electoral votes in 2016 and came in in 3rd place.  I can't say that I would be displeased with that choice, though I support this being decided by the electors representing how their state voted. 
Logged

J. J.

"Actually, .. now that you mention it...." 
- Londo Molari

"Every government are parliaments of whores.
The trouble is, in a democracy the whores are us." - P. J. O'Rourke

"Wa sala, wa lala."

(Zulu for, "You snooze, you lose.")
twenty42
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 886
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2018, 07:29:41 pm »

It would be far more likely that Ryan would simply cede his EV's to the candidate of his choice. There was a lot of talk of this eventuality in 1968...a deadlocked EC composed seemed very possible, and Nixon and Humphrey both wanted to stay in Wallace's good graces in case the 270th EV fell into his possession.
Logged
Never Gabbard
Ishan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 747
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2018, 04:06:41 pm »

Huey Long did this when he was Governor and was elected to the senate and was Governor for the rest of his term.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMUx4AQl5tI
Logged
President Phil Scott
marco.rem451
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 355


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2018, 02:32:35 pm »

Well, he can run for speaker and then it would be up to House members to elect him.

If he wins that, then he can't be sworn in as prez.

Otherwise, if he refuses to resign his term will end that January anyways. Of course, he is under no legal obligation to swear and take the inaugural oath of office (without which he isn't officially the P)
Logged

P. Scott/Bullock 2024

A Republican despite Trump.
jimrtex
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 9,002
Marshall Islands


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2018, 09:14:17 am »

A bit late, but someone was elected, who refused to give up an existing office, and was seated.

John Conyers, Jr. resigned in December 2017. Governor Snyder called the special election to fill the vacancy for November 2018, concurrent with the general election to elect a representative for the full term.

In the September 2018 Democratic primary, Rashida Tlaib won the nomination for the full term; while Brenda Jones won the nomination for the final two months of Conyers term. The difference in the plurality result was that the full term had two additional candidates, including State Senator Coleman Young II, son of longtime (20 years) former Detroit mayor Coleman Young.

Jones was elected to the short term in November. She is currently a member of the Detroit City Council, and refused to resign to become representative. She agreed to not take her pay as a city council member, and the city council has a year-end recess. After some delay, she was sworn in as representative. One of her first actions was to hire Conyers' chief of staff.

If she would have been a Michigan legislator, she would have had to resign, but the bar does not apply to other government officials. There apparently were no congressional precedents - probably because there have been few term fill-ins.
Logged
Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines