Merkel's Germany: an example of what's wrong

[Tender Branson]

Ingrid M., a retired 84-year old woman from Bavaria, who worked 45 years as a tailor until her retirement, was recently sentenced to a several month long prison term.

Why ?

After working for 45 years, she earns a pension of 725€ a month (!). After costs for rent and other basic stuff, she has 50€ (=$) left per month for food.

She considered going to the food bank, but it was too disgraceful to her and decided to steal a bacon (reduced in price) from a local shop and some bread.

https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/panorama/waren-im-wert-von-70-euro-84-jaehrige-klaut-lebensmittel-und-muss-ins-gefaengnis-28723136

On the other hand, you have hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants, who come to Merkel's Germany and to Sweden and to Austria, say "asylum !!!" and get a generous welfare payment of 850€ a month.

Something is wrong here, very wrong ...

[dead0man]

Ingrid should of thought about that before she retired.  Has she tried losing her paperwork and claiming to be 16?

[NoTrump]

On the other hand, you have hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants, who come to Merkel's Germany and to Sweden and to Austria, say "asylum !!!" and get a generous welfare payment of 850€ a month.

Out of curiosity--is there an effective procedure in place to differentiate genuine asylum seekers (such as, say, gay people from homophobic countries) from economic migrants?

[Famous Mortimer]

On the other hand, you have hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants, who come to Merkel's Germany and to Sweden and to Austria, say "asylum !!!" and get a generous welfare payment of 850€ a month.

Out of curiosity--is there an effective procedure in place to differentiate genuine asylum seekers (such as, say, gay people from homophobic countries) from economic migrants?

There is a system, whether it's effective or not is a moot point, since it is actively flouted.

[JA]

So... the problem here isn't that Ingrid M. is receiving such a pathetically small pension, but rather that asylum seekers are receiving slightly more generous social assistance? Couldn't it be possible to significantly raise the funds available to pensioners to ensure their living standards remain well above the poverty level through increased tax revenue, rather than scapegoating the least powerful and most vulnerable population in Germany?

Nice to see you using Ingrid's unfortunate story, which is a testament to the failure of the German social welfare system to adequately provide for its citizens, to target and scapegoat a population of war refugees.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

So... the problem here isn't that Ingrid M. is receiving such a pathetically small pension, but rather that asylum seekers are receiving slightly more generous social assistance? Couldn't it be possible to significantly raise the funds available to pensioners to ensure their living standards remain well above the poverty level through increased tax revenue, rather than scapegoating the least powerful and most vulnerable population in Germany?

Nice to see you using Ingrid's unfortunate story, which is a testament to the failure of the German social welfare system to adequately provide for its citizens, to target and scapegoat a population of war refugees.

[Tender Branson]

So... the problem here isn't that Ingrid M. is receiving such a pathetically small pension, but rather that asylum seekers are receiving slightly more generous social assistance? Couldn't it be possible to significantly raise the funds available to pensioners to ensure their living standards remain well above the poverty level through increased tax revenue, rather than scapegoating the least powerful and most vulnerable population in Germany?

Nice to see you using Ingrid's unfortunate story, which is a testament to the failure of the German social welfare system to adequately provide for its citizens, to target and scapegoat a population of war refugees.

No, what I wanted to show is that both are big problems: the low pensions and the exploitation of the welfare system by additionally "imported" economic migrants. The minimum pensions need to be higher and the pull factor for poor and unskilled economic migrants from abroad needs to be significantly reduced.

[DavidB.]

I don't think pensions would be any higher if Germany had taken in no Middle Eastern immigrants at all.

[SNJ1985]

So... the problem here isn't that Ingrid M. is receiving such a pathetically small pension, but rather that asylum seekers are receiving slightly more generous social assistance? Couldn't it be possible to significantly raise the funds available to pensioners to ensure their living standards remain well above the poverty level through increased tax revenue, rather than scapegoating the least powerful and most vulnerable population in Germany?

Nice to see you using Ingrid's unfortunate story, which is a testament to the failure of the German social welfare system to adequately provide for its citizens, to target and scapegoat a population of war refugees.

The vast majority of them are economic migrants, not ''war refugees''.

Just 1.4% of Migrants Arriving in Italy Are “Syrian Refugees”

[Tintrlvr]

So... the problem here isn't that Ingrid M. is receiving such a pathetically small pension, but rather that asylum seekers are receiving slightly more generous social assistance? Couldn't it be possible to significantly raise the funds available to pensioners to ensure their living standards remain well above the poverty level through increased tax revenue, rather than scapegoating the least powerful and most vulnerable population in Germany?

Nice to see you using Ingrid's unfortunate story, which is a testament to the failure of the German social welfare system to adequately provide for its citizens, to target and scapegoat a population of war refugees.

The vast majority of them are economic migrants, not ''war refugees''.

Just 1.4% of Migrants Arriving in Italy Are “Syrian Refugees”

The article you posted, despite being from an actual neo-Nazi source (neo-Nazi Christopher Nachtman and his wife, Jessica Nachtman, are the founders of the EU Times), doesn't even prove what you say it does. Of course most migrants coming into *Italy* are not from Syria. The vast majority are from (or otherwise came through) adjacent Libya, which is also war-torn and suffering. Syrians, on the other hand, would be going far out of their way to pass through Italy, though many can be found in Turkey and passing west out of Turkey into the rest of Europe (in much smaller numbers than two or three years ago, though).

[dead0man]

Are we really arguing against most of the refugees being economic migrants again?  How many peaceful countries did Omar 6 Pack (who by the way looks 32, but claims to be 16 and lost his paper work) cross to get to Sweden?

[Silent Hunter]

Why wouldn't a refugee go to somewhere that is more likely to accept them?

[dead0man]

Is that the angle now?  It's not about the money, it's the local acceptance of them?  You sure you want to keep walking down that road?

[Silent Hunter]

Is that the angle now?  It's not about the money, it's the local acceptance of them?  You sure you want to keep walking down that road?

At least I have an actual paved road I can walk down instead of a dirt track like many people in Africa.

Economic or political, these people are moving here to get a better life. Like your ancestors did.

[Middle-aged Europe]

So... the problem here isn't that Ingrid M. is receiving such a pathetically small pension, but rather that asylum seekers are receiving slightly more generous social assistance? Couldn't it be possible to significantly raise the funds available to pensioners to ensure their living standards remain well above the poverty level through increased tax revenue, rather than scapegoating the least powerful and most vulnerable population in Germany?

Nice to see you using Ingrid's unfortunate story, which is a testament to the failure of the German social welfare system to adequately provide for its citizens, to target and scapegoat a population of war refugees.

^^ This.

I don't think pensions would be any higher if Germany had taken in no Middle Eastern immigrants at all.

^^ And this.



I agree that pensions are too low. I disagree that this has anything to do with refugees.



As for the unrelated war refugees vs. economic refugees question... about two-thirds of people applying for asylum in Germany in 2016 came from either Syria (36%), Afghanistan (17%), or Iraq (13%), which constituted the three most common countries of origin.

98% of all asylum applications from Syrian citzens were positively decided on by the authorities. That share tended to be a bit lower in the case of Iraqis (70%) and Afghans (56%). At the lower end of the scale you can find Albanian (0.4% were granted asylum in some form) and Pakistani (3.3%) citizens.

[Kingpoleon]

Ingrid M., a retired 84-year old woman from Bavaria, who worked 45 years as a tailor until her retirement, was recently sentenced to a several month long prison term.

Why ?

After working for 45 years, she earns a pension of 725€ a month (!). After costs for rent and other basic stuff, she has 50€ (=$) left per month for food.

She considered going to the food bank, but it was too disgraceful to her and decided to steal a bacon (reduced in price) from a local shop and some bread.

https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/panorama/waren-im-wert-von-70-euro-84-jaehrige-klaut-lebensmittel-und-muss-ins-gefaengnis-28723136

On the other hand, you have hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants, who come to Merkel's Germany and to Sweden and to Austria, say "asylum !!!" and get a generous welfare payment of 850€ a month.

Something is wrong here, very wrong ...

If an African male immigrant had worked for forty-five years as a tailor(20 to 65), retired, received the welfare payments, and stolen something similar, I can totally see you calling him a thief who was sentenced too lightly because he is an immigrant and who received "handouts from hardworking German citizens."

[Middle-aged Europe]

It's also interesting to note that not a single proposition has been made here so far on how pensions for German citizens can be substantially raised. That's basically the AfD problem... they blame refugees for everything, but when they're asked on TV what they're position on reforming the pension system are, they have to admit that haven't actually a solution in their platform.


Off the top of my hat, there are basically three or four options...

1) The most popular or well-known one is switching to a variation of the Alpine countries' systems and let public servants, self-employed people, members of parliament and so on pay into the state's social pension funds. Opinion polls show widespread support of two-thirds to three-quarters of the population for that idea, but is opposed in particular by CDU/CSU and FDP. So unless, a Red-Red-Green coalition comes to be that isn't going to happen in the immediate future.

Other options include...

2) Have pensions - at least in part - be financed by taxes, as a measure to boost and supplement the system.

3) For those of you who are less inclined to embrace socialistic ideas: Reform and improve company or private pensions plan. To explain how this may be done is probably impossible within the confines of this post though. Needless to say, it's a complex and detailed mess.

4) And on the more absurd side (for lower income people anyway)... the FDP solution simply seems to be "buy yourself an appartment or a house", at least that's what Christian Lindner proposed when he was asked that question in one of the TV debates prior to the election.

[NoTrump]

As for the unrelated war refugees vs. economic refugees question... about two-thirds of people applying for asylum in Germany in 2016 came from either Syria (36%), Afghanistan (17%), or Iraq (13%), which constituted the three most common countries of origin.

OK, but what were their reasons for seeking asylum? Indeed, do we have any data on this?

Basically, there is a difference between a Syrian or Iraqi or Afghan seeking asylum because he or she is gay or a feminist and a Syrian or Iraqi or Afghan seeking asylum because he, say, doesn't want to serve in his country's military.

Indeed, people in the former category should be given asylum either in the West or in Latin America since those countries tend to have the most liberal policies in regards to things such as gay rights or women's rights. In contrast, people in the latter category can be given asylum anywhere--even in another, stable Third World country.

[NoTrump]

Is that the angle now?  It's not about the money, it's the local acceptance of them?  You sure you want to keep walking down that road?

At least I have an actual paved road I can walk down instead of a dirt track like many people in Africa.

Economic or political, these people are moving here to get a better life. Like your ancestors did.

Out of curiosity--have you read Anatoly Karlin's writings in regards to this?

[NoTrump]

Are we really arguing against most of the refugees being economic migrants again?  How many peaceful countries did Omar 6 Pack (who by the way looks 32, but claims to be 16 and lost his paper work) cross to get to Sweden?

Good question. However, we also need to ask as to why exactly one is seeking asylum; after all, if the West can't accept everyone, it is going to need to prioritize who exactly should get asylum there. As for the rest of the asylum seekers, the West should try hard to ensure that they get asylum elsewhere--even in another, stable Third World country.

[NoTrump]

98% of all asylum applications from Syrian citzens were positively decided on by the authorities. That share tended to be a bit lower in the case of Iraqis (70%) and Afghans (56%). At the lower end of the scale you can find Albanian (0.4% were granted asylum in some form) and Pakistani (3.3%) citizens.

I'm curious about this--if one's asylum application is rejected, does one get sent back to one's home country?

Indeed, I think that it would be much better to pay some other, stable Third World country/countries to accept rejected asylum seekers; after all, when asylum seekers are sent back to their home countries, they can literally get hurt or killed afterwards!