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Author Topic: EU creates mega-army  (Read 1519 times)
NewYorkExpress
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« on: November 13, 2017, 07:56:52 pm »

http://www.businessinsider.com/eu-countries-agree-mega-army-2017-11

Quote
France and Germany edged toward achieving a 70-year-old ambition to integrate European defenses on Monday, signing a pact with 21 other EU governments to fund, develop and deploy armed forces after Britain’s decision to quit the bloc.

First proposed in the 1950s and long resisted by Britain, European defense planning, operations and weapons development now stands its best chance in years as London steps aside and the United States pushes Europe to pay more for its security.

Foreign and defense ministers gathered at a signing ceremony in Brussels to represent 23 EU governments joining the pact, paving the way for EU leaders to sign it in December.

Those governments will for the first time legally bind themselves into joint projects as well as pledging to increase defense spending and contribute to rapid deployments.

“Today we are taking a historic step,” Germany’s Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel told reporters. “We are agreeing on the future cooperation on security and defense issues ... it’s really a milestone in European development,” he said.

The pact includes all EU governments except Britain, which is leaving the bloc, Denmark, which has opted out of defense matters, Ireland, Portugal and Malta. Traditionally neutral Austria was a late addition to the pact.
 

Paris originally wanted a vanguard of EU countries to bring money and assets to French-led military missions and projects, while Berlin has sought to be more inclusive, which could reduce effectiveness.

Its backers say that if successful, the formal club of 23 members will give the European Union a more coherent role in tackling international crises and end the kind of shortcomings seen in Libya in 2011, when European allies relied on the United States for air power and munitions.

Unlike past attempts, the U.S.-led NATO alliance backs the project, aiming to benefit from stronger militaries.

The club will be backed by a 5-billion-euro defense fund for buying weapons, a special fund to finance operations and money from the EU’s common budget for defense research.

Members will also be required to submit national plans and be subject to a review system identifying weak spots in European armies with the goal of plugging those gaps together.


Should their first move be an invasion of Russia?
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Citizen (The) Doctor
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2017, 07:59:52 pm »

multipolarity is such a great idea
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The Saint
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2017, 08:11:36 pm »

Should their first move be an invasion of Russia?

what no

I'd prefer if we didn't have another world war.

Besides, isn't this what NATO is for? Shouldn't the EU be more concerned with economy?
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coloniac
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2017, 08:32:45 pm »

Should their first move be an invasion of Russia?

what no

I'd prefer if we didn't have another world war.

Besides, isn't this what NATO is for? Shouldn't the EU be more concerned with economy?

https://www.nato.int/cps/ic/natohq/official_texts_133163.htm

EU had, realistically, only two states capable of long-term deployment offensive and subsequent counter-insurgency in a theatre of war. France and the UK. They've just lost one. Really CSDP is what the American think-tanks have been wanting all along : the EU MSs taking defence seriously.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2017, 09:05:26 pm »

Good to see Germany taking a lead role in these affairs. France is a bit more iffy, considering the broad support in that country for Mélenchon and Le Pen.

That said, will Ukraine ever be allowed to join the E. U.? Or will Russian intimidation continue to prevent it?
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The Saint
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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2017, 11:22:34 pm »

Should their first move be an invasion of Russia?

what no

I'd prefer if we didn't have another world war.

Besides, isn't this what NATO is for? Shouldn't the EU be more concerned with economy?

https://www.nato.int/cps/ic/natohq/official_texts_133163.htm

EU had, realistically, only two states capable of long-term deployment offensive and subsequent counter-insurgency in a theatre of war. France and the UK. They've just lost one. Really CSDP is what the American think-tanks have been wanting all along : the EU MSs taking defence seriously.

Ah ok. Thank you!

I'm still somewhat opposed to this and would prefer a more economic-based EU, but I can see why one would like an EU-based army.
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« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2017, 11:34:08 pm »

Should their first move be an invasion of Russia?

what no

I'd prefer if we didn't have another world war.

Besides, isn't this what NATO is for? Shouldn't the EU be more concerned with economy?

It would be suicide anyway. To make up for their perpetually lackluster military pro-USSR, Russia has made it clear that they will use nuclear weapons if met with overwhelming conventional forces. I would think a large military group blowing past their border would count Tongue
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« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2017, 11:39:50 pm »

Should their first move be an invasion of Russia?

what no

I'd prefer if we didn't have another world war.

Besides, isn't this what NATO is for? Shouldn't the EU be more concerned with economy?

It would be suicide anyway. To make up for their perpetually lackluster military pro-USSR, Russia has made it clear that they will use nuclear weapons if met with overwhelming conventional forces. I would think a large military group blowing past their border would count Tongue

This.

We're not in Napoleon's day anymore where you could just say "f*** it" and invade the next country without massive damage worldwide.
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2017, 05:36:57 am »

Another proof that Brexit is one of the best thing that ever happened to the EU.
We are finally moving forward without the UK blocking any further political integration.
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Parrotguy
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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2017, 06:01:46 am »

Very, very good. Macron is doing well.
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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2017, 06:24:11 am »

Should their first move be an invasion of Russia?

what no

I'd prefer if we didn't have another world war.

Besides, isn't this what NATO is for? Shouldn't the EU be more concerned with economy?

It would be suicide anyway. To make up for their perpetually lackluster military pro-USSR, Russia has made it clear that they will use nuclear weapons if met with overwhelming conventional forces. I would think a large military group blowing past their border would count Tongue

Speaking of Russia's conventional arms, it's really a bizarre topic. On one hand they have a sophisticated military industry, especially for external markets, but at the same time they don't manufacture some essential spare parts needed for maintenance of their own arms. They were operating under "lol, why manufacture if we can just buy it?", and then sanctions came...
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« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2017, 08:21:36 am »

you guys got this? again?  We (the US) can leave now?  Germany won't be invading anybody in twenty five years?  We're getting tired of keeping you dumb whiteys from killing each other, will you finally be able to control yourselves?
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« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2017, 08:51:44 am »

Another proof that Brexit is one of the best thing that ever happened to the EU.
We are finally moving forward without the UK blocking any further political integration.

We've also lost a strongly pro-market and pro-trade country Cry.

I've grown much more supportive of the EU overall (I never supported a Nexit or something like that, but I used to be pretty negative about the EU), so if this causes European armed forces to become more efficient I strongly support it. NATO remains our primary safeguard (and should be expanded), but liberal democracies working together on defence matters is a good thing.
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« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2017, 12:01:01 pm »

Since the whole Crimean business I've grown more supportive towards NATO and don't want this to go. But I've also been long in favor of integrated European military defense. Aside of my European federalist views, the two are not mutually exclusive. To the contrary, such a force would add a solid second pillar to the Atlantic defense.


Also the fact PiS is currently pretty much destroying the Polish military makes me even more in favor of this project.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 12:02:48 pm by Come grasp the mighty avatar of our admin »Logged

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« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2017, 12:17:19 pm »

I've grown much more supportive of the EU overall (I never supported a Nexit or something like that, but I used to be pretty negative about the EU), so if this causes European armed forces to become more efficient I strongly support it. NATO remains our primary safeguard (and should be expanded), but liberal democracies working together on defence matters is a good thing.
Exactly. This is a very good idea.
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« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2017, 12:31:02 pm »

Austria (= neutral) only joined this thing for training and knowledge reasons (and probably will never fully join or engage in any battles/maneuvers).

Plus, it would be better if the EU managed to set up a common, effective border patrol agency that keeps the economic migrants in Africa and the Middle-East - where they belong.

Other than that, the FPÖ wants to increase military spending to 1% of GDP here in the coalition talks (currently, we are spending just 0.65% of the GDP on the military - one of the lowest amounts on the planet).
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« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2017, 02:03:26 pm »

Good, it's about time the gap between the US and Russia be filled.
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« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2017, 02:29:55 pm »

you guys got this? again?  We (the US) can leave now?  Germany won't be invading anybody in twenty five years?  We're getting tired of keeping you dumb whiteys from killing each other, will you finally be able to control yourselves?

Well, the EU is the 4th Reich so the US have failed I guess /s
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« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2017, 02:49:06 pm »

It would make sense to unify the Coast Guard, at the very least.
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« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2017, 02:50:27 pm »

Well, that just gave Eurosceptics a campaign point to make.
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coloniac
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2017, 06:46:23 pm »

Nice article

http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_eu_defence_efforts_miss_the_open_goal_again
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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2017, 06:00:22 am »

Well, that just gave Eurosceptics a campaign point to make.

Why? Because it makes it harder for Russia to invade us Tongue?
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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2017, 05:27:24 pm »

Another proof that Brexit is one of the best thing that ever happened to the EU.
We are finally moving forward without the UK blocking any further political integration.

Yup.
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« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2017, 05:39:03 pm »

Another proof that Brexit is one of the best thing that ever happened to the EU.
We are finally moving forward without the UK blocking any further political integration.

Yup.

Fairly sure this was being reported as in the works before Brexit - I think Leave even made hey with it during the campaign.

You'd also have to assume there were more obstacles than the UK if it's ended up a damp squib, as the link above appears to suggest.
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coloniac
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« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2017, 05:59:36 am »

Another proof that Brexit is one of the best thing that ever happened to the EU.
We are finally moving forward without the UK blocking any further political integration.

Yup.

Fairly sure this was being reported as in the works before Brexit - I think Leave even made hey with it during the campaign.

You'd also have to assume there were more obstacles than the UK if it's ended up a damp squib, as the link above appears to suggest.

The UK was always a big obstacle.

EDIT : except for a brief period under Blair. Then Iraq happened.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 06:43:59 am by coloniac »Logged
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