Al Franken accused of sexual harassment
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Badger
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« Reply #275 on: November 16, 2017, 11:11:13 PM »

This article by Erin Gloria Ryan pretty much sums up my biggest fears with this movement.

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https://www.thedailybeast.com/after-al-franken-and-roy-moore-we-are-dangerously-close-to-botching-the-metoo-moment

Is it really irrational to think that a needed cause for a genuine movement could get contaminated by attention-seekers and golddiggers?

Oh fuzzy. Sad
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Devout Centrist
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« Reply #276 on: November 16, 2017, 11:18:06 PM »

This article by Erin Gloria Ryan pretty much sums up my biggest fears with this movement.

Quote
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https://www.thedailybeast.com/after-al-franken-and-roy-moore-we-are-dangerously-close-to-botching-the-metoo-moment

Is it really irrational to think that a needed cause for a genuine movement could get contaminated by attention-seekers and golddiggers?
You do realize that civil cases aren't free money buttons?
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Sestak
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« Reply #277 on: November 16, 2017, 11:23:38 PM »

I think the calls for Franken to step down were premature.

Nope. He should still step down, forgiven or not.

I don't care if we have to throw out half of Congress, this needs to be a firm line.
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MAINEiac4434
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« Reply #278 on: November 16, 2017, 11:42:52 PM »

^^^ honestly at this point throwing out half of congress is a good thing.
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OBD
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« Reply #279 on: November 17, 2017, 12:07:02 AM »

^^^ honestly at this point throwing out half of congress is a good thing.
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President Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #280 on: November 17, 2017, 12:10:54 AM »

^^^ honestly at this point throwing out half of congress is a good thing.
Earnest congresscritters trying to redeem themselves and owe up to past mistakes shouldn't be sacrificed at the alter of wrong-headed one-size-fits-all punishment.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #281 on: November 17, 2017, 12:13:24 AM »

^^^ honestly at this point throwing out half of congress is a good thing.

Special elections give us something to talk about here, so I'd be all for one member of Congress resigning every week.
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Kamala
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« Reply #282 on: November 17, 2017, 12:15:00 AM »

^^^ honestly at this point throwing out half of congress is a good thing.

Special elections give us something to talk about here, so I'd be all for one member of Congress resigning every week.


It'd be like Monday (idk if that's the right day) night football, except Tuesday Night Elections. All the news channels will be for it if they can over#analyze everything! 
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HisGrace
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« Reply #283 on: November 17, 2017, 12:36:08 AM »

The reason so many on both sides defend their own guy is that our society is SO sexist that the bad behavior is pervasive and accepted and as a result, it really doesn't rise to the level of behavior like other criminal behavior, or taboos.

Except that not too many people on the left are defending Franken, certainly not anywhere close to the number of people who defend Moore/Trump. So not "both sides".
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emailking
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« Reply #284 on: November 17, 2017, 01:27:06 AM »

^^^ honestly at this point throwing out half of congress is a good thing.

Special elections give us something to talk about here, so I'd be all for one member of Congress resigning every week.


As long as they're all on Tuesday. That's my pizza night.
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Person Man
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« Reply #285 on: November 17, 2017, 02:16:30 AM »

The reason so many on both sides defend their own guy is that our society is SO sexist that the bad behavior is pervasive and accepted and as a result, it really doesn't rise to the level of behavior like other criminal behavior, or taboos.

Except that not too many people on the left are defending Franken, certainly not anywhere close to the number of people who defend Moore/Trump. So not "both sides".

In fact, this entire experience is an introduction to accountability. One side clearly accepts wrong doing and has shown remorse and a willing to accept punishment.  If this means nothing, then that is why we and the rest of the rest of the world  are on the verge of becoming people like Trump and Putin's property.

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politics_king
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« Reply #286 on: November 17, 2017, 02:57:16 AM »

I think Al should step down. And do PAC work, let the State AG who has been floated takeover. It was a joke with the photo, the other accusations are disgusting. He should try to reach out with Tweeden, see if something constructive can come to fruition, which probably will not. She seems to have been stewing on this for a long time and rightfully so. I shake my head right now, I have an opinion why he did this stupid sh**t, but it'll never justify it. Women are not objects. And I'm proud a movement has been made through it but this is such for the wrong reasons. But continue to push it. Women should not have to put up with this b.s. my mom was a victim of extreme circumstances multiple times. So it hits home.
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Sir Mohamed
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« Reply #287 on: November 17, 2017, 03:34:32 AM »

I'm really disappointed about this. Franken was one of the least Democrats I expected something like that.

I think he should step down. Dems also risk nothing, since MN has a Dem governor.
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
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« Reply #288 on: November 17, 2017, 05:52:38 AM »
« Edited: November 17, 2017, 06:10:51 AM by Come grasp the mighty avatar of our admin »

I have a hard time agreeing that somebody should be disqualified for the rest of her of his life due to an inappropriate attempt at "joke". Censured? Criticized? Yes. But let's be honest here, 90% of the population would be disqualified under such strict standards (and I'm not talking just about sexual context).

I totally agree with this, especially the underlined part.

Sexual assault is never merely just an attempt at a joke. We are not exactly overwhelmed with seats in Congress that need filling. There are 325 million Americans, and 535 congresscritters. We can be a little picky.

Also the point publicunofficial made above. I don't think Franken should be cast out of society, have his memory damned, or anything like that. There's plenty he can do, even plenty of very good work for very good causes,

My main point is I don't think it's right to have somebody forced out of office based on a sole accusation. Yes, it's not the court of law, but we still should adhere to the principle of presumption of innocence until proven guilty. It's a bigger issue than Al Franken. I'll repeat: it's not about whether we should believe the accuser or not, and in most cases the accuser is proven correct in the end. But let it run a proper course.

The truth is like a thin ice. Let's it hold or break on its own. It's likely Franken may soon found himself in a cold water with Roy Moore and if so, screw him, good riddance, we learned a valuable lesson.
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Fuzzy Stands With His Friend, Chairman Sanchez
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« Reply #289 on: November 17, 2017, 06:51:38 AM »
« Edited: November 17, 2017, 07:00:58 AM by Fuzzy Bear »

This article by Erin Gloria Ryan pretty much sums up my biggest fears with this movement.

Quote
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https://www.thedailybeast.com/after-al-franken-and-roy-moore-we-are-dangerously-close-to-botching-the-metoo-moment

Is it really irrational to think that a needed cause for a genuine movement could get contaminated by attention-seekers and golddiggers?

Bitches and whores, am I right?

No, you're not right.  You may be pompous and self-righteous, but you're not right.  

Whenever you have a system where an accusation is received without question and sanctioned harshly, regardless of severity, you have the potential for all sorts of abuse.  There are any number of folks with axes to grind, any number of people who seek unearned celebrity, any number of people who want a quick payoff for something where there didn't have to actually work to do it.

What will happen, by the way, if this standard of unquestioned acceptance of accusers' accounts of such incidents, coupled with contempt for the idea that an accused person will put forth a defense, bleeds down from celebrities and politicians to the average citizen who cannot afford lawyers and spokespersons.  The whole idea about JUSTICE involves the principle of an accused person being accused in a somewhat timely manner, and that a person accused has the right to confront their accusers if the matter comes to court or some other kind of tribunal.  

I know of no one who would tolerate rape or require someone to be quiet about someone raping them.  I know of no one who would pressure someone not to press charges on matters of rape and domestic violence, other than folks whose interests lie with the accused.  I am not willing to pretend, for political expediency, that public attitudes toward sexual harrassment, rape, domestic violence, etc. are the same today as they were in 1950; they are not.

I'll say this:  Going forward, I believe that our society, as it has sent the message that these behaviors are unquestionably unacceptable, needs to also send the message to victims that they need to come forward, and come forward timely.  There ARE support networks.  I understand that some victims are coerced and threatened; that only means that the offensive (and possibly criminal) behavior is ongoing.  But folks not coming forward for reasons having nothing to do with legitimate fear of physical harm and retaliation ought to be looked at with a degree of skepticism.  An accusation against a person of the sort of things we have been talking about should not be something used as some kind of bargaining chip or hole card to be played at will.  If the behavior is THAT bad to where it causes damage, or is a crime, it should be reported ASAP.  To report something 40 years earlier, when there is no legal remedy for the misbehaving party, but cash and celebrity for the accused, is something other than justice.

I will admit an exception on situations like Roy Moore.  Moore was a Prosecutor during his prime trolling days, so I can understand that folks might have some kind of fear that he would misuse his position.  (Sadly, I'm beginning to have little doubt of the worst of Roy Moore.)  When the perpetrators are Law Enforcement, this is scary, and there needs to be adequate means to protect THEIR accusers. 
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Badger
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« Reply #290 on: November 17, 2017, 09:49:00 AM »

This article by Erin Gloria Ryan pretty much sums up my biggest fears with this movement.

Quote
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https://www.thedailybeast.com/after-al-franken-and-roy-moore-we-are-dangerously-close-to-botching-the-metoo-moment

Is it really irrational to think that a needed cause for a genuine movement could get contaminated by attention-seekers and golddiggers?

Bitches and whores, am I right?

No, you're not right.  You may be pompous and self-righteous, but you're not right.  

Whenever you have a system where an accusation is received without question and sanctioned harshly, regardless of severity, you have the potential for all sorts of abuse.  There are any number of folks with axes to grind, any number of people who seek unearned celebrity, any number of people who want a quick payoff for something where there didn't have to actually work to do it.

What will happen, by the way, if this standard of unquestioned acceptance of accusers' accounts of such incidents, coupled with contempt for the idea that an accused person will put forth a defense, bleeds down from celebrities and politicians to the average citizen who cannot afford lawyers and spokespersons.  The whole idea about JUSTICE involves the principle of an accused person being accused in a somewhat timely manner, and that a person accused has the right to confront their accusers if the matter comes to court or some other kind of tribunal.  

I know of no one who would tolerate rape or require someone to be quiet about someone raping them.  I know of no one who would pressure someone not to press charges on matters of rape and domestic violence, other than folks whose interests lie with the accused.  I am not willing to pretend, for political expediency, that public attitudes toward sexual harrassment, rape, domestic violence, etc. are the same today as they were in 1950; they are not.

I'll say this:  Going forward, I believe that our society, as it has sent the message that these behaviors are unquestionably unacceptable, needs to also send the message to victims that they need to come forward, and come forward timely.  There ARE support networks.  I understand that some victims are coerced and threatened; that only means that the offensive (and possibly criminal) behavior is ongoing.  But folks not coming forward for reasons having nothing to do with legitimate fear of physical harm and retaliation ought to be looked at with a degree of skepticism.  An accusation against a person of the sort of things we have been talking about should not be something used as some kind of bargaining chip or hole card to be played at will.  If the behavior is THAT bad to where it causes damage, or is a crime, it should be reported ASAP.  To report something 40 years earlier, when there is no legal remedy for the misbehaving party, but cash and celebrity for the accused, is something other than justice.

I will admit an exception on situations like Roy Moore.  Moore was a Prosecutor during his prime trolling days, so I can understand that folks might have some kind of fear that he would misuse his position.  (Sadly, I'm beginning to have little doubt of the worst of Roy Moore.)  When the perpetrators are Law Enforcement, this is scary, and there needs to be adequate means to protect THEIR accusers. 

Cash and celebrity? Or maybe it's just because if one person comes forward it's not as bad as you coming forward alone. It's like a dam breaking, where one person forward makes it easier for others.

Do you really think these women are not catching hell from partisans?
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Reaganfan
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« Reply #291 on: November 18, 2017, 02:24:08 AM »

I'm no Franken fan, but I think this is a bit of an overreaction, as usual, by SJW.
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Citizen (The) Doctor
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« Reply #292 on: November 18, 2017, 03:08:01 AM »

This article by Erin Gloria Ryan pretty much sums up my biggest fears with this movement.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/after-al-franken-and-roy-moore-we-are-dangerously-close-to-botching-the-metoo-moment

Is it really irrational to think that a needed cause for a genuine movement could get contaminated by attention-seekers and golddiggers?

Bitches and whores, am I right?

No, you're not right.  You may be pompous and self-righteous, but you're not right.  

Whenever you have a system where an accusation is received without question and sanctioned harshly, regardless of severity, you have the potential for all sorts of abuse.  There are any number of folks with axes to grind, any number of people who seek unearned celebrity, any number of people who want a quick payoff for something where there didn't have to actually work to do it.

What will happen, by the way, if this standard of unquestioned acceptance of accusers' accounts of such incidents, coupled with contempt for the idea that an accused person will put forth a defense, bleeds down from celebrities and politicians to the average citizen who cannot afford lawyers and spokespersons.  The whole idea about JUSTICE involves the principle of an accused person being accused in a somewhat timely manner, and that a person accused has the right to confront their accusers if the matter comes to court or some other kind of tribunal.  

I know of no one who would tolerate rape or require someone to be quiet about someone raping them.  I know of no one who would pressure someone not to press charges on matters of rape and domestic violence, other than folks whose interests lie with the accused.  I am not willing to pretend, for political expediency, that public attitudes toward sexual harrassment, rape, domestic violence, etc. are the same today as they were in 1950; they are not.

I'll say this:  Going forward, I believe that our society, as it has sent the message that these behaviors are unquestionably unacceptable, needs to also send the message to victims that they need to come forward, and come forward timely.  There ARE support networks.  I understand that some victims are coerced and threatened; that only means that the offensive (and possibly criminal) behavior is ongoing.  But folks not coming forward for reasons having nothing to do with legitimate fear of physical harm and retaliation ought to be looked at with a degree of skepticism.  An accusation against a person of the sort of things we have been talking about should not be something used as some kind of bargaining chip or hole card to be played at will.  If the behavior is THAT bad to where it causes damage, or is a crime, it should be reported ASAP.  To report something 40 years earlier, when there is no legal remedy for the misbehaving party, but cash and celebrity for the accused, is something other than justice.

I will admit an exception on situations like Roy Moore.  Moore was a Prosecutor during his prime trolling days, so I can understand that folks might have some kind of fear that he would misuse his position.  (Sadly, I'm beginning to have little doubt of the worst of Roy Moore.)  When the perpetrators are Law Enforcement, this is scary, and there needs to be adequate means to protect THEIR accusers. 

Have you ever experienced assault Fuzzy Bear? I ask that not to be belligerent but to make it clear that there are several different issues that a victim could face that stand in the way of their reporting. There are societal norms and outside influences that go beyond the threat of physical force that often coerce a victim into not coming forward. It isn't uncommon to have your peers or family discourage you from such actions -- what kind of support system is supposed to supplant that?
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« Reply #293 on: November 19, 2017, 03:14:59 PM »

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #294 on: November 19, 2017, 03:20:09 PM »

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.



There is always a different standard for women on sexual matters. That's why society was always more tolerant of female homosexuality and there is much less outrage when an adult woman has sex with an underage boy.
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BlueSwan
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« Reply #295 on: November 19, 2017, 04:19:02 PM »

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.


Ok, that makes her look seriously hypocritical.
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Blackacre
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« Reply #296 on: November 19, 2017, 04:37:11 PM »

When's the ethics investigation going to start?

It seems to me like the ethics investigation IS creating a standard and establishing gradations on accusations of sexual misconduct. The goal of the investigation should be to see if Franken has a history of this type of behavior or if this was the only time in his life he's done this. If it's the former, he has to go. If it's the latter, given how solid his apology was and the mitigating factors that have come out since, I think it's fair to say he should serve out the remainder of his term.

When the next Senator gets accused, this is the process they should go through. What Franken did was really bad, but nowhere near as bad as what Roy Moore and Donald Trump did. So maybe there was a method behind the madness with the ethics investigation idea
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President Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #297 on: November 19, 2017, 04:43:05 PM »
« Edited: November 19, 2017, 04:48:04 PM by Southern Deputy Speaker/National Archivist TimTurner »

When's the ethics investigation going to start?

It seems to me like the ethics investigation IS creating a standard and establishing gradations on accusations of sexual misconduct. The goal of the investigation should be to see if Franken has a history of this type of behavior or if this was the only time in his life he's done this. If it's the former, he has to go. If it's the latter, given how solid his apology was and the mitigating factors that have come out since, I think it's fair to say he should serve out the remainder of his term.

When the next Senator gets accused, this is the process they should go through. What Franken did was really bad, but nowhere near as bad as what Roy Moore and Donald Trump did. So maybe there was a method behind the madness with the ethics investigation idea
I don't really care about the frequency he did this kind of behavior, insofar as it might theoretically effect the question of whether he should leave office. As far as that question is concerned, I care only about how he is making up for it in present day. That is what really matters. And he has so far aced things.
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« Reply #298 on: November 19, 2017, 04:46:37 PM »

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.


Wow.  Thanks for posting this.  I'm not sure how this makes me feel.  It brings up thoughts of 'locker room banter'...USO tours entertaining mostly young men stationed in places that they'd rather not be provides incentive to be raunchy and inappropriate.

It certainly takes away any equivalence to Roy Moore's preying on young adolescent girls.

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Santander
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« Reply #299 on: November 19, 2017, 05:02:04 PM »

As I said in another thread, it's not that uncommon for women to grab ass. Certainly, men are responsible for more unwanted groping than women, but it's not such a great idea to use this as an excuse to beat up on men for being so awful.
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