Al Franken accused of sexual harassment

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

1) Not sure why groped is in scare quotes.  Franken groped her (among other things), there's really no ambiguity regarding that fact.

2) I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.  I mean, yes, it looks like this woman sexually harassed that guy, but that doesn't make what Franken did any less horrible.  He still needs to resign immediately even if this was the only time he did something like that.  Once is one time too many, period.  

3) I'm not saying this was your intent or anything (in fact, I'm pretty sure it wasn't, but this still needs to be said since some other posters seem to be moving in this direction), but acting like this has any relevance to what Franken did to this woman is straight out of the Clintons' slut-shaming playbook.  It would be like saying "So one of the women Roy Moore 'sexually assaulted' has been divorced three times and once filed for bankruptcy."

Again, not saying you were trying to do that (and I'd be shocked if you were), but there is an long history of powerful men getting away with treating women horribly by digging up dirt on the victim that into the story.  I'm not saying Franken's accuser is an angel or that grabbing that guy's a** was anything other than completely unacceptable, but let's not fall for this tired trick.  Whatever else this woman has or hasn't done, during her interaction with Franken, she was the victim of completely unacceptable behavior by a man who now holds one of the highest political offices in America.  She has a right not to be groped in her sleep, period.

4) Mods get to use profanity uncensored?  When will the double-standards end  

[Ban my account ffs!]

Ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass

[MAINEiac4434]

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

As a man who's been inappropriately touched by a conventionally attractive woman without my consent, this makes me cringe.

[Ban my account ffs!]

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

As a man who's been inappropriately touched by a conventionally attractive woman without my consent, this makes me cringe.

As a man who has been through a few episodes like this, it is actually X's opinion that offends me most.  As if he is some moral authority of anything.

[BlueSwan]

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

As a man who's been inappropriately touched by a conventionally attractive woman without my consent, this makes me cringe.

As a man who has been through a few episodes like this, it is actually X's opinion that offends me most.  As if he is some moral authority of anything.

I'm confused. Who is X?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Sexual harassment is bad no matter who does it and to whom (sane but apparently abnormal).

[Beet]

As I said in another thread, it's not that uncommon for women to grab ass. Certainly, men are responsible for more unwanted groping than women, but it's not such a great idea to use this as an excuse to beat up on men for being so awful.

We agree that it's not uncommon, but it is awful. This is what feminists mean when they talk about rape culture. It is ingrained in our culture that there is a spectrum of vaguely acceptable nonconsensual sexual violations and a toxic belief system around that. It needs to stop.

[Val]

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

1) Not sure why groped is in scare quotes.  Franken groped her (among other things), there's really no ambiguity regarding that fact.

2) I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.  I mean, yes, it looks like this woman sexually harassed that guy, but that doesn't make what Franken did any less horrible.  He still needs to resign immediately even if this was the only time he did something like that.  Once is one time too many, period.  

3) I'm not saying this was your intent or anything (in fact, I'm pretty sure it wasn't, but this still needs to be said since some other posters seem to be moving in this direction), but acting like this has any relevance to what Franken did to this woman is straight out of the Clintons' slut-shaming playbook.  It would be like saying "So one of the women Roy Moore 'sexually assaulted' has been divorced three times and once filed for bankruptcy."

Again, not saying you were trying to do that (and I'd be shocked if you were), but there is an long history of powerful men getting away with treating women horribly by digging up dirt on the victim that into the story.  I'm not saying Franken's accuser is an angel or that grabbing that guy's a** was anything other than completely unacceptable, but let's not fall for this tired trick.  Whatever else this woman has or hasn't done, during her interaction with Franken, she was the victim of completely unacceptable behavior by a man who now holds one of the highest political offices in America.  She has a right not to be groped in her sleep, period.

4) Mods get to use profanity uncensored?  When will the double-standards end  

^^^ Thank you for this. As you can tell by my permanent Username 🙄 Al Franken is someone that I looked up to. I read all his books and I was proud that he was my senator. I used to brag about it to people. So when I heard the news about what he did I felt like someone kicked me in the stomach. But I would never defend him for that. I see people all over twitter and here trying to Justify what he did and it’s making it worse. We really just gotta let go of him and find someone better to take his place.
(had to delete links bc I haven’t made enough posts yet)

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

As I said in another thread, it's not that uncommon for women to grab ass. Certainly, men are responsible for more unwanted groping than women, but it's not such a great idea to use this as an excuse to beat up on men for being so awful.

We agree that it's not uncommon, but it is awful. This is what feminists mean when they talk about rape culture. It is ingrained in our culture that there is a spectrum of vaguely acceptable nonconsensual sexual violations and a toxic belief system around that. It needs to stop.

[BlueSwan]

As I said in another thread, it's not that uncommon for women to grab ass. Certainly, men are responsible for more unwanted groping than women, but it's not such a great idea to use this as an excuse to beat up on men for being so awful.

We agree that it's not uncommon, but it is awful. This is what feminists mean when they talk about rape culture. It is ingrained in our culture that there is a spectrum of vaguely acceptable nonconsensual sexual violations and a toxic belief system around that. It needs to stop.

English is not my first language, so I am going to have difficulty expressing my thoughts on this topic clearly, but I will give it a try.

I have a real problem with a black/white worldview without nuances. The moral domain is rarely absolute - it is full of greys. Nuances matter. Context matters.

Few places is this more true than when it comes to the "sexual" interaction between the sexes. I don't believe a culture where you have to sign a disclosure form before anybody is allowed to have any physical contact with another person is healthy for anyone. The interaction between the sexes is complicated and attraction is often cultivated through complex interplay which involves visits to a moral grey zone. Of course, this grey zone is also often grounds for misinterpretations of intent from both parties. Equally self-evident is the fact that there are boundaries which should never be crossed. But flirtation very often "flirts" with that boundary without actually crossing it. But when do we know when that boundary has been crossed and becomes abusive? We only know that in the actual context, which is why the context matters and which is why we need to accept that misunderstandings can occur.

At the moment where the Franken episode seems isolated, I am fully prepared to explain his behaviour by such a misunderstanding of his standing with this lady.

Roy Moore is totally different. We have a large number of accusers and there is a clear pattern of problematic behaviour towards much younger females. Had Roy Moore fallen in love with one particular teenager (not the 14 year old obviously, but someone in their late teens) and pursued a purely consensual relationship with her, then I would have accepted that. The problem for Moore is that we have established a pattern of sexually predatorial bevaviour towards very young females. We have similarly disturbing reports about Donald Trump and Harvey Weinstein is in another category entirely. Don't lump Al Franken with those guys - his behaviour is not comparable to them.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Was this guy her BF or Hubby or Friends with benefits partner?  Do we know?  Sure blame the girl for Franken sticking his tongue halfway down her throat.

[BlueSwan]

Was this guy her BF or Hubby or Friends with benefits partner?  Do we know?  Sure blame the girl for Franken sticking his tongue halfway down her throat.

Who is blaming the girl?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Was this guy her BF or Hubby or Friends with benefits partner?  Do we know?  Sure blame the girl for Franken sticking his tongue halfway down her throat.

Who is blaming the girl?

TG's both sides do it thing seems like attacking the victim

[BudgieForce]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html

Another woman has come out and claimed Franken touched her butt in 2010.

Even if it makes me a hypocrite, Im at the point where I dont think getting your ass grabbed should be a news story. Its gross and deserves a smack on the face, but thats about it.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html

Another woman has come out and claimed Franken touched her butt in 2010.

Even if it makes me a hypocrite, Im at the point where I dont think getting your ass grabbed should be a news story. Its gross and deserves a smack on the face, but thats about it.

Reasonable.  What about the Bush 41 grab ass allegations?

[Person Man]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html

Another woman has come out and claimed Franken touched her butt in 2010.

Even if it makes me a hypocrite, Im at the point where I dont think getting your ass grabbed should be a news story. Its gross and deserves a smack on the face, but thats about it.

Reasonable.  What about the Bush 41 grab ass allegations?

I still respect 41.

[BudgieForce]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html

Another woman has come out and claimed Franken touched her butt in 2010.

Even if it makes me a hypocrite, Im at the point where I dont think getting your ass grabbed should be a news story. Its gross and deserves a smack on the face, but thats about it.

Reasonable.  What about the Bush 41 grab ass allegations?

An old man in a wheelchair touched a butt. Ive had multiple old women grab my ass, who cares.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html

Another woman has come out and claimed Franken touched her butt in 2010.

Even if it makes me a hypocrite, Im at the point where I dont think getting your ass grabbed should be a news story. Its gross and deserves a smack on the face, but thats about it.

Reasonable.  What about the Bush 41 grab ass allegations?

An old man in a wheelchair touched a butt. Ive had multiple old women grab my ass, who cares.

Not me but in another thread there's a lot of butt hurt going on about HDubs.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

As a man who's been inappropriately touched by a conventionally attractive woman without my consent, this makes me cringe.

As a man who has been through a few episodes like this, it is actually X's opinion that offends me most.  As if he is some moral authority of anything.

All due respect, but if you were offended by my post then frankly that says a lot more about you than it does about anything else (and none of it good).

[Person Man]

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

As a man who's been inappropriately touched by a conventionally attractive woman without my consent, this makes me cringe.

As a man who has been through a few episodes like this, it is actually X's opinion that offends me most.  As if he is some moral authority of anything.

All due respect, but if you were offended by my post then frankly that says a lot more about you than it does about anything else (and none of it good).

I am concerned about taking this into context as not to blame the victim.

[Jeppe]

Al Franken should resign. It’s obvious that he has a history of sexual harassing women, and I don’t think these two women will be the last. He’d be doing his nation a service by resigning, by sending the message that this kind of behaviour is unacceptable, especially for somebody in public office.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

1) Not sure why groped is in scare quotes.  Franken groped her (among other things), there's really no ambiguity regarding that fact.

2) I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.  I mean, yes, it looks like this woman sexually harassed that guy, but that doesn't make what Franken did any less horrible.  He still needs to resign immediately even if this was the only time he did something like that.  Once is one time too many, period.  

3) I'm not saying this was your intent or anything (in fact, I'm pretty sure it wasn't, but this still needs to be said since some other posters seem to be moving in this direction), but acting like this has any relevance to what Franken did to this woman is straight out of the Clintons' slut-shaming playbook.  It would be like saying "So one of the women Roy Moore 'sexually assaulted' has been divorced three times and once filed for bankruptcy."

Again, not saying you were trying to do that (and I'd be shocked if you were), but there is an long history of powerful men getting away with treating women horribly by digging up dirt on the victim that into the story.  I'm not saying Franken's accuser is an angel or that grabbing that guy's a** was anything other than completely unacceptable, but let's not fall for this tired trick.  Whatever else this woman has or hasn't done, during her interaction with Franken, she was the victim of completely unacceptable behavior by a man who now holds one of the highest political offices in America.  She has a right not to be groped in her sleep, period.

4) Mods get to use profanity uncensored?  When will the double-standards end  

^^^ Thank you for this. As you can tell by my permanent Username 🙄 Al Franken is someone that I looked up to. I read all his books and I was proud that he was my senator. I used to brag about it to people. So when I heard the news about what he did I felt like someone kicked me in the stomach. But I would never defend him for that. I see people all over twitter and here trying to Justify what he did and it’s making it worse. We really just gotta let go of him and find someone better to take his place.
(had to delete links bc I haven’t made enough posts yet)

Before the sexual harassment allegations came out about Franken, I'd wanted him to run for President in 2020, so I know what you mean.  It always sucks when one of your heroes lets you down, but yeah, people who try to defend or rationalize what he did are definitely making things worse.  What Franken did was unacceptable, period.  It may not be as bad as some of the stuff other people have done and the first accuser may have her own issues, but neither of those things is an excuse.  I completely agree that he needs to resign and that we have to find someone better to take his place.

[Ban my account ffs!]

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

As a man who's been inappropriately touched by a conventionally attractive woman without my consent, this makes me cringe.

As a man who has been through a few episodes like this, it is actually X's opinion that offends me most.  As if he is some moral authority of anything.

All due respect, but if you were offended by my post then frankly that says a lot more about you than it does about anything else (and none of it good).

The spirit of your argument is absolutely correct...this behavior is inexcusable and unacceptable.  But you come off as respecting the rule more than the reasons for the rules, and that makes it seem like virtue signaling. 

I've been groped inappropriately and I went through a very uncomfortable experience as a young child from another boy that I wont go into detail about.  I've been stalked and harrassed online as a young teenager.

My take is that this is a cycle of abuse that perpetuates itself, and yes, is unfortunately up to those abused to stop it.  For me, that starts with forgiveness.  Not only for their sake, but mine.  Showing a little grace where there is pain and darkness.

Your post showed nothing but haughty moral grandstanding when seen through the lens of my life experience.  And yes, that reaction says a lot about the "nothing good" that I have experienced, so in that way...you were right.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Furthermore...I know more than one person who were sexually abused as children by adults who are afraid to seek help or talk beyond hushed tones to those they trust because they are afraid of the consequences meted out by people who have no connection to the situation for the abuser.

Your attitude perpetuates that, X.  They have found a way tto forgive with no professional help.

This needs to be a conversation.  An airing of dirty laundry.  Working through it.  NOT an inquisition.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

As a man who's been inappropriately touched by a conventionally attractive woman without my consent, this makes me cringe.

As a man who has been through a few episodes like this, it is actually X's opinion that offends me most.  As if he is some moral authority of anything.

All due respect, but if you were offended by my post then frankly that says a lot more about you than it does about anything else (and none of it good).

The spirit of your argument is absolutely correct...this behavior is inexcusable and unacceptable.  But you come off as respecting the rule more than the reasons for the rules, and that makes it seem like virtue signaling.  

I've been groped inappropriately and I went through a very uncomfortable experience as a young child from another boy that I wont go into detail about.  I've been stalked and harrassed online as a young teenager.

My take is that this is a cycle of abuse that perpetuates itself, and yes, is unfortunately up to those abused to stop it.  For me, that starts with forgiveness.  Not only for their sake, but mine.  Showing a little grace where there is pain and darkness.

Your post showed nothing but haughty moral grandstanding when seen through the lens of my life experience.  And yes, that reaction says a lot about the "nothing good" that I have experienced, so in that way...you were right.

I’m not sure how my response to TexasGurl could’ve been interpreted as respecting the rules for their own sake while dismissing the importance of the reasons for their existence or the causes of the problem, but that certainly wasn’t my intention.  My point was that the fact that one of Franken’s accusers sexually harassed someone should not be used to excuse his behavior and I felt some posters were really starting to head in that direction.  I am also really sorry about what you’ve had to go through.  I’d say more, but frankly I don’t know that there’s anything I can say here that will help.  I almost wonder if you didn’t just misinterpret my post because it seems like you’re upset that I failed to discuss the way cycles of abuse can factor into sexual abuse, but I’m not sure what that has to with what TexasGurl said in the post I was responding to so I’m not sure why you’d expect my response to focus on that.  

If you think I’m just engaging in a bunch of self-congratulatory moral grandstanding that’s unfortunate because I’m not posturing.  Preventing sexual harassment, sexual abuse, child abuse, domestic violence, and helping the victims of such revolting acts has always been something extremely dear to my heart for a number of reasons.  If you think I’m full of sh!t, that’s your right, but I stand by everything that I said in response to TexasGurl since it was true then and it’s just as true now.  With all due respect, I really don’t see how my post could’ve reasonably been interpreted in the way you described in your post.

As to my “says nothing good” post, I thought you were saying you were offended by the idea that Franken’s initial accuser committing sexual harassment somehow mitigates the fact that Franken groped her.  If that wasn’t what you meant then I apologize for that comment.

Furthermore...I know more than one person who were sexually abused as children by adults who are afraid to seek help or talk beyond hushed tones to those they trust because they are afraid of the consequences meted out by people who have no connection to the situation for the abuser.

Your attitude perpetuates that, X.  They have found a way tto forgive with no professional help.

This needs to be a conversation.  An airing of dirty laundry.  Working through it.  NOT an inquisition.

I’m sorry you feel that way, but I could easily say the same thing about some of the stuff you’ve posted.  And I’m pretty damn sure that you’re wrong about my views preventing victims of sexual abuse from coming forward.  The idea that holding people accountable for using their power to sexually abuse others is “an inquisition” is ridiculous at best.  Or are Kevin Spacey, Donald Trump, and Roy Moore just the victims of a moralizing witchunt?  I agree that this needs to be a conversation, but that doesn’t mean folks like Franken shouldn’t be held accountable.  The man is a US Senator and we have a right to expect that our elected officials haven’t sexually harassed people.  This isn’t an unreasonable expectation in any way, shape, or form.