Al Franken accused of sexual harassment (user search)
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  Al Franken accused of sexual harassment (search mode)
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Author Topic: Al Franken accused of sexual harassment  (Read 27680 times)
BlueSwan
blueswan
Junior Chimp
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Posts: 6,374
Denmark


Political Matrix
E: -4.26, S: -7.30

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« on: November 16, 2017, 04:19:31 PM »

The picture was clearly a joke, but an inappropriate one and I was pretty disgusted with the story about the at the very least semi-forced kiss. On the other hand, I don't like the general idea that politicians have to be super clean moral guys, when we know that most ordinary people have a skeleton or two in their closet. Going after legitimate serial-abusers is different to going after guys who have done a dumb thing or two in their lives. I would like to see a pattern of abusive behaviour before I strongly condemn anyone.

Also, how are we even talking about condemning someone like Franken for this when the American people elected a guy president who OPENLY BRAGGED ABOUT GRABBING WOMEN BY THE PUSSY AND JUST KISSING THEM OUT OF NOWHERE WHEN HE GREETS THEM. How are people forgetting this. Trump is easily worse than Moore, just based on what we actually know.
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BlueSwan
blueswan
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,374
Denmark


Political Matrix
E: -4.26, S: -7.30

WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2017, 04:19:02 PM »

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.


Ok, that makes her look seriously hypocritical.
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BlueSwan
blueswan
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,374
Denmark


Political Matrix
E: -4.26, S: -7.30

WWW
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2017, 02:17:18 AM »

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.


As a man who's been inappropriately touched by a conventionally attractive woman without my consent, this makes me cringe.
As a man who has been through a few episodes like this, it is actually X's opinion that offends me most.  As if he is some moral authority of anything.
I'm confused. Who is X?
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BlueSwan
blueswan
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,374
Denmark


Political Matrix
E: -4.26, S: -7.30

WWW
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2017, 07:00:32 AM »

As I said in another thread, it's not that uncommon for women to grab ass. Certainly, men are responsible for more unwanted groping than women, but it's not such a great idea to use this as an excuse to beat up on men for being so awful.

We agree that it's not uncommon, but it is awful. This is what feminists mean when they talk about rape culture. It is ingrained in our culture that there is a spectrum of vaguely acceptable nonconsensual sexual violations and a toxic belief system around that. It needs to stop.
English is not my first language, so I am going to have difficulty expressing my thoughts on this topic clearly, but I will give it a try.

I have a real problem with a black/white worldview without nuances. The moral domain is rarely absolute - it is full of greys. Nuances matter. Context matters.

Few places is this more true than when it comes to the "sexual" interaction between the sexes. I don't believe a culture where you have to sign a disclosure form before anybody is allowed to have any physical contact with another person is healthy for anyone. The interaction between the sexes is complicated and attraction is often cultivated through complex interplay which involves visits to a moral grey zone. Of course, this grey zone is also often grounds for misinterpretations of intent from both parties. Equally self-evident is the fact that there are boundaries which should never be crossed. But flirtation very often "flirts" with that boundary without actually crossing it. But when do we know when that boundary has been crossed and becomes abusive? We only know that in the actual context, which is why the context matters and which is why we need to accept that misunderstandings can occur.

At the moment where the Franken episode seems isolated, I am fully prepared to explain his behaviour by such a misunderstanding of his standing with this lady.

Roy Moore is totally different. We have a large number of accusers and there is a clear pattern of problematic behaviour towards much younger females. Had Roy Moore fallen in love with one particular teenager (not the 14 year old obviously, but someone in their late teens) and pursued a purely consensual relationship with her, then I would have accepted that. The problem for Moore is that we have established a pattern of sexually predatorial bevaviour towards very young females. We have similarly disturbing reports about Donald Trump and Harvey Weinstein is in another category entirely. Don't lump Al Franken with those guys - his behaviour is not comparable to them.
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BlueSwan
blueswan
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,374
Denmark


Political Matrix
E: -4.26, S: -7.30

WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2017, 09:16:35 AM »

Was this guy her BF or Hubby or Friends with benefits partner?  Do we know?  Sure blame the girl for Franken sticking his tongue halfway down her throat.
Who is blaming the girl?
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BlueSwan
blueswan
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,374
Denmark


Political Matrix
E: -4.26, S: -7.30

WWW
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 01:34:46 AM »

I feel that there are two issues here.

One is the moral issue, which has been debated quite a bit.

The other is the electoral issue, where the argument that democrats should take the moral high ground and push Franken out, since they would otherwise look like hypocrites.

That argument is fundamentally flawed. Do people forget that one of the main reasons why Trump won was that he wasn't politically correct? The white working class despises overly sensitive liberals. It is one of the main reasons why we have lost them over the last few decades. If we demonize what in their minds might be "playful" banter or "boys being boys" we will lose EVERY SINGLE TIME. We need to be able to distinguish between actual predatorial behaviour and fratboy humour here. It is crucial. If we try to convince people that a slap on the ass is basically equal to rape then we will figuratively get our asses handed to us in elections. People will not stand for it. Please do make the argument that there is a difference between Franken and Moore and that grabbing someones ass in public is not something that you should lose your job over. Do discuss whether that is appropriate behaviour, but don't overreact.
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