Al Franken accused of sexual harassment (user search)
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  Al Franken accused of sexual harassment (search mode)
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Author Topic: Al Franken accused of sexual harassment  (Read 27599 times)
Fuzzy Bear
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« on: November 16, 2017, 07:55:15 PM »

I have a hard time agreeing that somebody should be disqualified for the rest of her of his life due to an inappropriate attempt at "joke". Censured? Criticized? Yes. But let's be honest here, 90% of the population would be disqualified under such strict standards (and I'm not talking just about sexual context).

Now, crossing certain barriers is thoroughly a diffrent matter. Still, I can't endorse somebody having to resign as soon as the accusation is being raised. And it's not whether we believe the accuser or not (and, in the vast majority of such cases, accusations are indeed turning out to be true). It's about upholding "innocent until proven guilty" principle. And if we want to apply this principle to other cases, then we can't make an exception here. And this applies to Roy F-king Moore too, or at least applied until the whole dome broke.

All I can say it doesn't look good for Franken and I won't shed any tears for him if he'll have to step down in disgrace after all.
I agree.

If this is the only incident, I don't think he should step down. But if, as usually happens, more accusations come out, he probably should quietly withdraw from politics.

I'm not defending Franken and I'm not condoning his actions.  But the way this issue is going is getting way out of hand to where folks' lives will be ruined by mere accusations.  Even if these accusations are never supported by viable evidence, folks' lives will be ruined if victims' stories are sacrosanct and not subject to reasonable scrutiny.  Is that going to produce a more just society?  Somehow, I question that.

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Fuzzy Bear
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2017, 09:10:21 PM »

This article by Erin Gloria Ryan pretty much sums up my biggest fears with this movement.

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https://www.thedailybeast.com/after-al-franken-and-roy-moore-we-are-dangerously-close-to-botching-the-metoo-moment

Is it really irrational to think that a needed cause for a genuine movement could get contaminated by attention-seekers and golddiggers?
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Fuzzy Bear
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« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2017, 06:51:38 AM »
« Edited: November 17, 2017, 07:00:58 AM by Fuzzy Bear »

This article by Erin Gloria Ryan pretty much sums up my biggest fears with this movement.

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https://www.thedailybeast.com/after-al-franken-and-roy-moore-we-are-dangerously-close-to-botching-the-metoo-moment

Is it really irrational to think that a needed cause for a genuine movement could get contaminated by attention-seekers and golddiggers?

Bitches and whores, am I right?

No, you're not right.  You may be pompous and self-righteous, but you're not right.  

Whenever you have a system where an accusation is received without question and sanctioned harshly, regardless of severity, you have the potential for all sorts of abuse.  There are any number of folks with axes to grind, any number of people who seek unearned celebrity, any number of people who want a quick payoff for something where there didn't have to actually work to do it.

What will happen, by the way, if this standard of unquestioned acceptance of accusers' accounts of such incidents, coupled with contempt for the idea that an accused person will put forth a defense, bleeds down from celebrities and politicians to the average citizen who cannot afford lawyers and spokespersons.  The whole idea about JUSTICE involves the principle of an accused person being accused in a somewhat timely manner, and that a person accused has the right to confront their accusers if the matter comes to court or some other kind of tribunal.  

I know of no one who would tolerate rape or require someone to be quiet about someone raping them.  I know of no one who would pressure someone not to press charges on matters of rape and domestic violence, other than folks whose interests lie with the accused.  I am not willing to pretend, for political expediency, that public attitudes toward sexual harrassment, rape, domestic violence, etc. are the same today as they were in 1950; they are not.

I'll say this:  Going forward, I believe that our society, as it has sent the message that these behaviors are unquestionably unacceptable, needs to also send the message to victims that they need to come forward, and come forward timely.  There ARE support networks.  I understand that some victims are coerced and threatened; that only means that the offensive (and possibly criminal) behavior is ongoing.  But folks not coming forward for reasons having nothing to do with legitimate fear of physical harm and retaliation ought to be looked at with a degree of skepticism.  An accusation against a person of the sort of things we have been talking about should not be something used as some kind of bargaining chip or hole card to be played at will.  If the behavior is THAT bad to where it causes damage, or is a crime, it should be reported ASAP.  To report something 40 years earlier, when there is no legal remedy for the misbehaving party, but cash and celebrity for the accused, is something other than justice.

I will admit an exception on situations like Roy Moore.  Moore was a Prosecutor during his prime trolling days, so I can understand that folks might have some kind of fear that he would misuse his position.  (Sadly, I'm beginning to have little doubt of the worst of Roy Moore.)  When the perpetrators are Law Enforcement, this is scary, and there needs to be adequate means to protect THEIR accusers. 
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