Prediction: The sexual harassment outrage will hurt democrats, not help them.

[BlueSwan]

Please, do tell what you consider to be "REAL" harassment.

Roy Moore, Donald Trump, Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, etc.

If you would only categorize that as "harassment," I'd hate to see what you'd consider "assault."

Al Franken is accused of shoving his tongue down a woman's throat just because he wanted to. It's literally an uninvited sexual action. What the hell do you call that?

An uninvited sexual action.

You're still burying the fact that you consider what Cosby and Weinstein did to only be "harassment."

No. English is not my first language. My post was not about distinguishing between harassment and assault. It was about distinguishing about brattishness or whatever on the one side and harassment/assault on the other.

[BlueSwan]

The usual thing is happening. Liberals are taking something that is a very real issue - in this case sexism, rape culture and actual sexual harassment, and end up trivializing it by labelling every little joke or minor misdeed "sexual assault" or worse. The Al Franken case is a great example of this.

Guess what, most americans, and especially the white working class, are not down with that at all. They see it as hysteric. It becomes all too easy for them to label everybody taking up these issues as "feminazis", "politically correct", "elitist" or just out of touch with reality. In the process they end up supporting ACTUAL offenders like Roy Moore or Donald Trump because liberals lump them all together, not being able to distinguish between actual sexual harassment and brattish behaviour.

The result is that we end up losing as usual, not just electorally, but the actual important issue of REAL harassment. When will the more hysteric amongst us liberals learn the lesson??

Just after my gf, sisters in law and nieces tell me they're fine with being raped for ephemeral political advantage with Trump voters. I.e. NEVER,  since that might not have been clear enough for you.

People (using the word very loosely) who think there should be a debate about what level of sexual predation and assault is acceptable are NEVER going to vote for strong female candidates. They will NEVER vote for full enforcement of civil and human rights. They will, however, be likely be easily swayed by whatever hate and nonsense the GOP is vomiting this time. (See 2016, 2004, etc.)

Taking this kind of black or white attitude to the realm of human interaction is deeply problematic. Context is important. Flirtation is grey area stuff. Failure to realize this will cost liberals elections AND it will hurt the cause of preventing actual sexual harassment/assault.

No, it won't. Nor is it a 'grey area'.

Here is a video on consent and tea that you could benefit from:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8

(And if you watch it and then immediately start imagining justifiable edge cases, you are a broken person who needs help.)

The video is a poor analogy. It basically suggests that one should always ask "would you like me to touch you there" before you do so. That's just not how human interaction in the sexual realm works.  I seriously doubt that anybody in this thread does so with their girlfriend/boyfriends or wifes/husbands.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

The usual thing is happening. Liberals are taking something that is a very real issue - in this case sexism, rape culture and actual sexual harassment, and end up trivializing it by labelling every little joke or minor misdeed "sexual assault" or worse. The Al Franken case is a great example of this.

Guess what, most americans, and especially the white working class, are not down with that at all. They see it as hysteric. It becomes all too easy for them to label everybody taking up these issues as "feminazis", "politically correct", "elitist" or just out of touch with reality. In the process they end up supporting ACTUAL offenders like Roy Moore or Donald Trump because liberals lump them all together, not being able to distinguish between actual sexual harassment and brattish behaviour.

The result is that we end up losing as usual, not just electorally, but the actual important issue of REAL harassment. When will the more hysteric amongst us liberals learn the lesson??

Just after my gf, sisters in law and nieces tell me they're fine with being raped for ephemeral political advantage with Trump voters. I.e. NEVER,  since that might not have been clear enough for you.

People (using the word very loosely) who think there should be a debate about what level of sexual predation and assault is acceptable are NEVER going to vote for strong female candidates. They will NEVER vote for full enforcement of civil and human rights. They will, however, be likely be easily swayed by whatever hate and nonsense the GOP is vomiting this time. (See 2016, 2004, etc.)

Taking this kind of black or white attitude to the realm of human interaction is deeply problematic. Context is important. Flirtation is grey area stuff. Failure to realize this will cost liberals elections AND it will hurt the cause of preventing actual sexual harassment/assault.

No, it won't. Nor is it a 'grey area'.

Here is a video on consent and tea that you could benefit from:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8

(And if you watch it and then immediately start imagining justifiable edge cases, you are a broken person who needs help.)

The video is a poor analogy. It basically suggests that one should always ask "would you like me to touch you there" before you do so. That's just not how human interaction in the sexual realm works.  I seriously doubt that anybody in this thread does so with their girlfriend/boyfriends or wifes/husbands.

And yet, it somehow manages to exactly model what Trump, Franken, Moore and others have done that is so reprehensible. Shoving tea in peoples faces, forcing it into their mouths, offering it (by coercion) it to people who are too young to (ethically or responsibly) drink it. I find it extremely telling that rather than see the connection between the horrible things done by men in power who clearly violated consent, you instead, predictably, went for "yeah, but in this other case I made up in my head-".

And for the record, yes, people do ask their partners if they like what they're doing. And when they ask you to stop doing something, you stop, you don't keeping doing it. You seem to be being willfully obtuse about what is wrong with what these men (and presumably some powerful women somewhere, too) have done.

[Bojack Horseman]

It’s already happening. The fact that Democrats are calling for Franken and John Conyers to resign shows me that they’re falling for a GOP setup game. The Republicans are going to start hiring bimbos off the street to go on Fox News and accuse politicians they’ve never even heard of of sexual harassment to defeat any up-and-coming Democrat who could be a threat to Trump in 2020.

The fact that Liberals fell for this Steve Bannon hit job on Franken is disgraceful. That woman is a frequent guest on Hannity and other Fox News shows and pictures of them together on that USO tour show that they were friendly and affectionate. Plus if you can’t see the difference between committing statutory rape with a 14 year old and taking a goofy picture then I don’t know what to say.

[BlueSwan]

And for the record, yes, people do ask their partners if they like what they're doing. And when they ask you to stop doing something, you stop, you don't keeping doing it. You seem to be being willfully obtuse about what is wrong with what these men (and presumably some powerful women somewhere, too) have done.

I have expressly written in this thread and others that I don't condone the behaviour of Franken and that I regard the behaviours of Moore, Trump, Weinstein, etc. to be abusive.

It is just that my agenda in this thread is a different one. It is about the dangers of seeing everything in black and white, which in my view greatly hurts both democrats and the important agenda of countering rape culture, sexual harassment and sexism.

Just look at the moral outrage from yourself and others in this thread against a fellow liberal who actually cares about these issues. This is what creates the resentment towards "elitist liberals" amongst the white working class and others. If sceptism about immigration is labelled racist and brattish behaviour is labelled sexist or even abusive, then forget about ever appealing to these people. There are certainly way too many true sexists and racists out there, as we are seeing a lot of evidence of lately, but what we often risk doing is pushing more people into that column by grouping racists with sceptics and grouping sexual abusers with regular working class people.

Not that it matters, but for the record I am a lifelong feminist who has fought for women's rights and gay rights my entire adult life. I have touched exactly TWO women in a sexual way in my entire life: my wife (been with her for 16 years) and my girlfriend (4 years) in my youth. I don't approve of the way a lot of men treat women, but I insist on distinguishing between a pat on the shoulder and rape.

[Person Man]

I guess this is how harassment becomes OK in the minds of some?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Please, do tell what you consider to be "REAL" harassment.

Roy Moore, Donald Trump, Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, etc.

If you would only categorize that as "harassment," I'd hate to see what you'd consider "assault."

Al Franken is accused of shoving his tongue down a woman's throat just because he wanted to. It's literally an uninvited sexual action. What the hell do you call that?

An uninvited sexual action.

You're still burying the fact that you consider what Cosby and Weinstein did to only be "harassment."

I find it disconcerting that folks here throw around terms that mean things specific to argue their cause and distort the facts in these controversies.

Sexual Misconduct
Sexual Harrassment
Sexual Assault
Sexual Battery
Child Abuse
Pedophelia
Child Molestation
Statutory Rape
Sexual Predator

These terms all have specific meanings, either clinically or legally, yet people feel free to let fly with labels that do not accurately describe situations.  That's how we come to equate Bill Cosby with Al Franken. 

[Ye We Can]

Denmark must be a maaaagical place

[BlueSwan]

Denmark must be a maaaagical place

It's pretty good.

[Fuzzy Bear]

And for the record, yes, people do ask their partners if they like what they're doing. And when they ask you to stop doing something, you stop, you don't keeping doing it. You seem to be being willfully obtuse about what is wrong with what these men (and presumably some powerful women somewhere, too) have done.

I have expressly written in this thread and others that I don't condone the behaviour of Franken and that I regard the behaviours of Moore, Trump, Weinstein, etc. to be abusive.

It is just that my agenda in this thread is a different one. It is about the dangers of seeing everything in black and white, which in my view greatly hurts both democrats and the important agenda of countering rape culture, sexual harassment and sexism.

Just look at the moral outrage from yourself and others in this thread against a fellow liberal who actually cares about these issues. This is what creates the resentment towards "elitist liberals" amongst the white working class and others. If sceptism about immigration is labelled racist and brattish behaviour is labelled sexist or even abusive, then forget about ever appealing to these people. There are certainly way too many true sexists and racists out there, as we are seeing a lot of evidence of lately, but what we often risk doing is pushing more people into that column by grouping racists with sceptics and grouping sexual abusers with regular working class people.

Not that it matters, but for the record I am a lifelong feminist who has fought for women's rights and gay rights my entire adult life. I have touched exactly TWO women in a sexual way in my entire life: my wife (been with her for 16 years) and my girlfriend (4 years) in my youth. I don't approve of the way a lot of men treat women, but I insist on distinguishing between a pat on the shoulder and rape.

Amazing!  Someone with actual reasonableness of thought.

And, yes, the Democrats are likely to overplay this.  In doing so, they will conjure up the worst images of Rush Limbaugh's "Feminazis" that will invite a backlash from folks who will (rightly) see the issue as being framed as one were a person is discredited for merely denying an accusation. 

It seems to be OK to suggest that Trump's rural poor white supporters hate minorities.  But it doesn't seem to be OK to suggest that the organized Feminist Left actively hates men, even when there are writings and quotes to the contrary.  Something to think about for the Democrats come 2018.

[HisGrace]

Republicans are just as big a part of making a big deal out of the Franken situation, though. He's not as bad as Bill Cosby (how many people are?) but inappropriate touching certainly constitutes sexual harassment/misconduct in my book.

The OP's examples suck, but this is a real phenomenon. There are people who literally think trying to hold a woman's hand on a date is sexual assault. Meanwhile, women can grab men's legs/butts/genitals and it's okay because there's no "power imbalance" or whatever. Feminists are right about Trump being a pig but it doesn't mean they aren't full of sh**t in plenty of other areas.

We've already seen this happened with race where years of bogus claims of racism have desensitized people, letting Trump hide his real racism behind "being un-PC" or whatever. Now, that's also the fault of conservative media outlets for taking extreme cases of PC and drawing a disproportionate amount of attention to them to gin up outrage. And ultimately, you should be able to look at Trump's statements on their own merits and tell that they're racist, regardless of how you feel about the people making the accusation (as is the situation with me and feminists like I talked about in the above paragraph). So Trump supporters are still responsible for their support of him, but that doesn't mean opponents of Trump shouldn't be smart and avoid freaking out of trivial stuff and being the stereotypical "SJW" that exists in people's imaginations. Those people might as well just be alt-right propaganda since it fits in exactly with their message.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Playfully grabbing someone's ass: Not harassment.

WTF!? That is fu <king battery minimum.

[Dr Oz Lost Party!]

Only because the alt-right is trying to hijack and weaponize the #MeToo movement. They'll probably be as successful as James O'Keefe's little stunt he pulled.

[Green Line]

Not a red v blue issue.

[Reaganfan]

This post is accurate. I tried telling liberals about that after the Access Hollywood tape. They laughed in my face that white women over 40 would still vote for him.

Who is laughing now?

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

This post is accurate. I tried telling liberals about that after the Access Hollywood tape. They laughed in my face that white women over 40 would still vote for him.

Who is laughing now?

[J. J.]

This post is accurate. I tried telling liberals about that after the Access Hollywood tape. They laughed in my face that white women over 40 would still vote for him.

Who is laughing now?

1.  Trump carried white women in 2016.  And yes, I was surprised.

2.  There is a hypocrisy with Democrats, because they have been slow in criticizing their officeholders and supporters.  That is going to be the problem.