Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
July 20, 2018, 09:41:33 am
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Be sure to enable your "Ultimate Profile" for even more goodies on your profile page!

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  General Politics
| |-+  U.S. General Discussion (Moderators: TexasGurl, Torie, PiT (The Physicist))
| | |-+  Democrats (and sympathyzers): what if Franken's Resignation threatened his seat?
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: Democrats (and sympathyzers): what if Franken's Resignation threatened his seat?  (Read 775 times)
Badger
badger
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 17,975
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: December 06, 2017, 08:32:24 pm »

Democrats have been infinitely more honorable about calling out their own party members accused of sexual harassment then the pathetic defense of Roy Moore that too many Republicans have stuck to regardless. However, ask yourself honestly. What if Minnesota's Governor wasn't a Democrat and this meant a republican would be appointed with the advantage of incumbency going into next year's election? Or what if there was an election coming up in just a few weeks against a Sirius Republican candidate? I look for a convincing explanation from Hardcore liberals and Democrats that they would still just as adamantly went Frank and to step aside even if it meant anything from a guarantee to near certainty dash dash think as if Roy Moore stepped aside for a write-in by Martha Roby or Mo Brooks two weeks ago, but Roy Moore's name still appeared on the ballot Dash Dash that the seat would flip.

A somewhat less high-profile seat, but I'd love a convincing explanation how Democrats would be just as eager for Conyers to resign if he represented say a D+ 3 seat instead of a d + 33 seat
Logged

In America, it's easier to con somebody than to convince them they've been conned.-- Mark Twain.
Ghost of Ruin
Runeghost
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6,939


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2017, 08:48:34 pm »

Because I believe that in the long run principle beats selling out for expediency. Heck, just look at the GOP. They've been catering to sexists, racists, ignorance and wanna-be fascists for decades. No matter how politically unsound it was, they've consistently supported assault, rape, forced pregnancies, pedophilia, war crimes and countless other horrors, large and small. But when the time came, their voters turned out to support a senile reality TV star fraudster. What better example do you need that consistent principles win in the long run?

Logged

The current Republican Party is the most dangerous  threat American democracy has ever faced.
Mondale
Mondale_was_an_insidejob
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,946
United States
View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2017, 08:51:31 pm »

Let's be honest here....if it was an R governor...they would of not called on Franken to resign
Logged

Koharu
jphp
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 770
United States


Political Matrix
E: -4.39, S: -6.61

View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2017, 10:27:37 pm »

It would be frustrating, but I would still want him to resign. It's about doing the right thing and accepting the consequences. Losing the seat would be a possible consequence in that situation, and while it would hurt, it wouldn't be anything on allowing someone who has wronged people to continue as a leader. I can handle an opposite party representative. I cannot handle a representative who uses his or her power to hurt others and hide their actions.
Logged

🖖✝️♀️
💗

"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." -Frederick Douglass

"The whole law can be summed up in this one command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
-Galatians 5:14

America's Sweetheart ❤/𝕿𝖍𝖊 𝕭𝖔𝖔𝖙𝖞 𝖂𝖆𝖗𝖗𝖎𝖔𝖗
TexArkana
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6,763
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2017, 10:29:24 pm »

Idk if I'm a Dem sympathizer but I'd still be calling for him to resign. I have zero tolerance for perverts that aren't me.
Logged
Beet
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 22,569


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2017, 10:51:36 pm »

I haven't been strong calling for Franken to resign until recently at first even though I know he would be replaced by another Democrat. There are a few reasons for this other than the (D).

One, prior to this, Franken was one of the best Senators when it came to listening to women on sexual assault and other policy issues. He was the sponsor of a bill by a rape victim in Minnesota to increase funding for interrogation training in rape crimes; he was the probably the most responsive male Senator when it comes to Paid Leave programs, which is the cause of the wage gap.
These things do matter.

Then there's the support he got from former SNL women employees and women Senate staffers, and the fact that Kate Harding, who literally wrote the book on rape culture, penned a Washington Post op-ed defending him. He's not a clear fraud like Anthony Weiner was, Alan Grayson was, or Roy Moore is; I think he really does care.
These things do matter.

Then there's the fact that the accusations against him weren't initially as serious as the ones against Moore, Conyers, Weinstein, and most others. I don't actually think we should be throwing anyone under the bus just because they happen to be accused of sexual misconduct. That is an invitation for ill-motivated people to try to hijack and smear the #MeToo movement in bad faith, as almost happened with Project Veritas. The severity of what happened, and of course the credibility of the allegations (although I never doubted those), has to be taken into account.
These things do matter.

I've now reached the point where I think Franken needs to go, but I'm not as upset as some others that he wasn't kicked to the curb on day 1. Loyalty does count for something; Franken was a genuinely valuable ally when he was in the Senate for feminist causes, and no one will take that away from him. He could have (barely) survived without the latest accusation.
Logged

Chinese American for Trump. MAGA/KAG 2020.
BoAtlantis
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 785


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2017, 12:24:05 am »

This has been my complaint. Democrats have been wanting to display honor but they're doing it emotionally based on their opposition to Trump; that they refuse to stand for someone of his persona. It's easy to do such thing when you're already powerless at every level right now, and when one more loss wouldn't be as damaging for them as it would be for Republicans.

Let's just say for the sake of argument that Democrats are more honorable.

Showing an example through call for resignation hardly achieves anything when the rest of the country does not budge. Some will continue to believe that Trump and Moore are innocent while only Weinstein and Bill Clinton are definitely guilty, even when evidence against all of them are more or less comparable. Will that draw independent-leaning women to shift to Democrats? Miniscule number at most.

Voters have already shown that Hillary Clinton's progressivism does not matter to them. Why continue to act morally virtuous with little to obtain? It's possible to condemn sexual allegations and display an example through political values. Republicans already abandoned Christian values for Trump. It may not be the most ideal choice but it's wiser for Democrats to focus on cultivating candidates that can send out message in a more effective manner than Hillary could.

Democratic values can only be obtained through seats. Numerous candidates of questionable moral values come and go, but a nation's law has profound and longlasting effect, whether for good or bad.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 12:25:55 am by BoAtlantis »Logged
Ghost of Ruin
Runeghost
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6,939


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2017, 01:00:08 am »

This has been my complaint. Democrats have been wanting to display honor but they're doing it emotionally based on their opposition to Trump; that they refuse to stand for someone of his persona. It's easy to do such thing when you're already powerless at every level right now, and when one more loss wouldn't be as damaging for them as it would be for Republicans.

Let's just say for the sake of argument that Democrats are more honorable.

Showing an example through call for resignation hardly achieves anything when the rest of the country does not budge. Some will continue to believe that Trump and Moore are innocent while only Weinstein and Bill Clinton are definitely guilty, even when evidence against all of them are more or less comparable. Will that draw independent-leaning women to shift to Democrats? Miniscule number at most.

Voters have already shown that Hillary Clinton's progressivism does not matter to them. Why continue to act morally virtuous with little to obtain? It's possible to condemn sexual allegations and display an example through political values. Republicans already abandoned Christian values for Trump. It may not be the most ideal choice but it's wiser for Democrats to focus on cultivating candidates that can send out message in a more effective manner than Hillary could.

Democratic values can only be obtained through seats. Numerous candidates of questionable moral values come and go, but a nation's law has profound and longlasting effect, whether for good or bad.

This is a self-defeating argument. Our goal is better government. The way to get that via the current system is to elect more representatives to government who share our values. While I can potentially support someone who disagrees on how to make things happen, they do need to share my core values - including no tolerance for sexism, sexual (or other) assault, and the underlying cultural bigotry that leads to such actions and the passive acceptance or encouragement.

My whole life (and really, prior to it) the Democrats have talked a good game, but the people elected in the name of "at least our side wins" have sold out America and it's people again and again, usually to corporations, but sometimes to Republicans too. While I'll compromise a lot in order to stop Trump and the GOP and have a chance at saving this country for the future, I won't just repeated the failed Dem strategy of the last three decades.

To me, what you're saying sounds like "We should give up what we're fighting for so that we have a better chance to win". My response is that abandoning the reasons we're fighting is just another name for surrender.

Logged

The current Republican Party is the most dangerous  threat American democracy has ever faced.
Lincoln Assemblyman Dwarven Dragon
Wulfric
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18,471
United States


Political Matrix
E: -1.68, S: 1.22

P P

View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2017, 01:17:20 am »

The reason I want Franken to resign is because Dems need to be on the moral high ground to win in Alabama. If there was no special election going on, I wouldn't really care. The identity of the governor has nothing to do with sexual assault and thus doesn't affect my opinion of this.
Logged

Justice Kavanaugh Confirmation Vote Tracker: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/167X7SqG_m85IjJ_zI4m7IbD2EUdCcnTa37d-lB8xgk8
----
#FreeGreedoToday
#SherrodBrown2020
https://tengaged.com/user/JasonEldridge

'18 Gov. Ratings: https://tinyurl.com/h35xfkr (6/28: AZ: Strong Lean R ---> Lean R, NM: Lean D ---> Strong Lean D)
'18 Senate Ratings: http://tinyurl.com/yb7sxe9a (6/20: WV: Toss-Up ---> Lean D)
'18 House Rating: Lean D (3/14: Toss-Up ---> Lean D)
Pope Michael Bolton
jdb
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 16,259
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2017, 01:18:06 am »

Because I believe that in the long run principle beats selling out for expediency. Heck, just look at the GOP. They've been catering to sexists, racists, ignorance and wanna-be fascists for decades. No matter how politically unsound it was, they've consistently supported assault, rape, forced pregnancies, pedophilia, war crimes and countless other horrors, large and small. But when the time came, their voters turned out to support a senile reality TV star fraudster. What better example do you need that consistent principles win in the long run?


Logged

Cool Grin Afro 0:) Tongue Smiley Sad Huh Angry Wink Roll Eyes Undecided Evil Cheesy
C:-) Shocked Lips Sealed Azn
Sir Mohamed
MohamedChalid
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5,615
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2017, 10:24:31 am »

I would still favor resignation. Anything else would be a double standard.
Logged

United Arab Emirates Immigrant, naturalized US citizen, resident of wonderful California, devoted liberal Democrat. Any questions?

Endorsements:
- President: Kamala Harris
- CA Governor: Gavin Newsom
- CA Lt. Governor: Ed Hernandez
- CA Senate: Kevin de León

And let's make congress blue again in 2018! #BlueWave
The Mikado
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 16,744


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2017, 10:42:18 am »

Democrats have been infinitely more honorable about calling out their own party members accused of sexual harassment then the pathetic defense of Roy Moore that too many Republicans have stuck to regardless. However, ask yourself honestly. What if Minnesota's Governor wasn't a Democrat and this meant a republican would be appointed with the advantage of incumbency going into next year's election? Or what if there was an election coming up in just a few weeks against a Sirius Republican candidate? I look for a convincing explanation from Hardcore liberals and Democrats that they would still just as adamantly went Frank and to step aside even if it meant anything from a guarantee to near certainty dash dash think as if Roy Moore stepped aside for a write-in by Martha Roby or Mo Brooks two weeks ago, but Roy Moore's name still appeared on the ballot Dash Dash that the seat would flip.

A somewhat less high-profile seat, but I'd love a convincing explanation how Democrats would be just as eager for Conyers to resign if he represented say a D+ 3 seat instead of a d + 33 seat

Ben Ray Lujan, the #3 House Dem, has already called on Ruben Kihuen to step down in his D+3 NV-04.
Logged



The Handsome Monkey King Son Wukong weighs in on politics.
emailking
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,615


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2017, 11:26:25 am »

It's a good reason why Senate vacancies should have prompt special elections like there are for House vacancies. But yes, even if he was going to be replaced by a Republican he should still resign.
Logged
Badger
badger
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 17,975
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2017, 12:10:26 pm »

I have zero tolerance for perverts that aren't me.

You, sir, have won the internet.

Even my wife who is trying to get me off a lunchtime Atlas break back to billable hours laughed at that.
Logged

In America, it's easier to con somebody than to convince them they've been conned.-- Mark Twain.
Arch
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 7,823
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2017, 12:13:24 pm »

Wrong party Smiley
Logged

Sic semper tyrannis.

Formerly:


America's Sweetheart ❤/𝕿𝖍𝖊 𝕭𝖔𝖔𝖙𝖞 𝖂𝖆𝖗𝖗𝖎𝖔𝖗
TexArkana
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6,763
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2017, 12:16:27 pm »

I have zero tolerance for perverts that aren't me.

You, sir, have won the internet.

Even my wife who is trying to get me off a lunchtime Atlas break back to billable hours laughed at that.
Finally, my life long dream of winning the internet has been realized Cheesy
Logged
Helsinkian
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,006
Finland
View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2017, 12:17:06 pm »

The reason I want Franken to resign is because Dems need to be on the moral high ground to win in Alabama. If there was no special election going on, I wouldn't really care. The identity of the governor has nothing to do with sexual assault and thus doesn't affect my opinion of this.

The voters who back Roy Moore don't care about things like that
Logged
Badger
badger
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 17,975
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2017, 12:22:04 pm »

Democrats have been infinitely more honorable about calling out their own party members accused of sexual harassment then the pathetic defense of Roy Moore that too many Republicans have stuck to regardless. However, ask yourself honestly. What if Minnesota's Governor wasn't a Democrat and this meant a republican would be appointed with the advantage of incumbency going into next year's election? Or what if there was an election coming up in just a few weeks against a Sirius Republican candidate? I look for a convincing explanation from Hardcore liberals and Democrats that they would still just as adamantly went Frank and to step aside even if it meant anything from a guarantee to near certainty dash dash think as if Roy Moore stepped aside for a write-in by Martha Roby or Mo Brooks two weeks ago, but Roy Moore's name still appeared on the ballot Dash Dash that the seat would flip.

A somewhat less high-profile seat, but I'd love a convincing explanation how Democrats would be just as eager for Conyers to resign if he represented say a D+ 3 seat instead of a d + 33 seat

Ben Ray Lujan, the #3 House Dem, has already called on Ruben Kihuen to step down in his D+3 NV-04.

I think the answer may be implied already, but do you agree with Lujan?

Also maybe bringing up Conyers was a bad example because a special house election will promptly fill any vacancy, whereas in my hypothetical a Republican holds Franken's seat at least through next year, and creates another tough seat to fight next year.
Logged

In America, it's easier to con somebody than to convince them they've been conned.-- Mark Twain.
Badger
badger
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 17,975
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2017, 12:23:13 pm »

I have zero tolerance for perverts that aren't me.

You, sir, have won the internet.

Even my wife who is trying to get me off a lunchtime Atlas break back to billable hours laughed at that.
Finally, my life long dream of winning the internet has been realized Cheesy

Oh no, my friend. It goes beyond just that. As you can now see below, your post has risen to that penultimate internet reward: "Sigworthy!
Logged

In America, it's easier to con somebody than to convince them they've been conned.-- Mark Twain.
Fmr. Rep. Illiniwek
Governor Illiniwek
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,846


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 01:32:58 pm »

I'm sure we will soon find out the answer to that question.
Logged
Badger
badger
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 17,975
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2017, 10:58:33 pm »

I'm sure we will soon find out the answer to that question.

Huh? Franken will be replaced by a Democrat and in 2018 it's not likely to be seriously contested. What are you talking about? Huh
Logged

In America, it's easier to con somebody than to convince them they've been conned.-- Mark Twain.
RFKFan68
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,957
United States


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2017, 11:08:23 pm »

There will be an election in under a year so yes I would have supported it with a Republican governor.
Logged

cookiedamage
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 863


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2017, 12:19:17 am »

I still would have supported his resignation. I knew it would hurt and it would produce a republican senator, but I personally would have supported it.

Now, would Schumer and Durbin let it happen? Probably not. They'd probably demand he not run in 2018 at best. If I were Schumer, I'd ask him to still resign, and hope the GOPer in Minnesota appoints a centrist or moderate and not a trumpist/moore-lite.
Logged

Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines