ALEA IACTA EST: A Roman Republic Game (Senate Thread)

[Lumine]

The Roman Senate:

Rules:

Welcome to the Roman Senate, gentlemen! Here is were a large part of political debate and interventions should take place, and good efforts fighting in the Senate will come with significant rewards to the players who prove more adept to it. The basic idea is that here motions will be introduced, debated and voted on:

Participation: All Roman players inside the city of Rome can take part on debates as being present there. Roman players who are outside of Rome will still debate and vote the motions, it will be assumed that they are doing so through their supporters or clients (if you want to go overboard and assign a historical Senator to represent you even better, I can provide advice on that). Non-Roman players can send ambassadors to speak to the Senate on a given matter, but the Senate won't be patient with sending ambassadors just to troll (for lack of a better term).

Motions: Every turn I'll introduce at least one NPC motion to get things going, often based on historical proposals that took place. Each Roman player can introduce motion as they please, but please keep them short and simple so as to not get dragged on parliamentary procedure. Votes will be open on motions 48 hours before a turn ends, players can vote by posting here or by private message. Not voting will be considered as abstaining, and not voting on several motions will have serious consecuences.

[Lumine]

Motion N°1:

Introduced by the tribunes M. Coelius and C. Lucilius:

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[Dereich]

Motion N°2

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Motion N°3

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EDIT: I intend to argue for my motions at a later time when I am able to do so.

[DKrol]

On Motion N°1, I offer my support to the motion. The people of Rome are not safe and only a dictator can restore safety and order to our great city and the rest of Italy. My great successes in Sulla's Second Civil War, in Sicily, and in Lepidus's rebellion are well known. To give me the command to restore order will be to entrust the care of Rome in the hands of a confident, capable, and beloved general. I will secure Rome within the year!

On Motion N°2, I offer my support to the motion. G. Julius Caesar has had many years to secure Gaul for Rome and has failed to do so. It is time to recall his proconsulship and instead offer it to another general.

On Motion N°3, I stand opposed. The rights of a soldier to claim the spoils of war are well understood and must be protected.

[DKrol]

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[GoTfan]

Motion N°5

That the Senate grant G. Julius Caesar permission to raise two additional legions to end the war in Gaul for good.

[DKrol]

Motion N°6

That the Senate grant G. Julius Caesar permission to raise two additional legions to end the war in Gaul for good.

On Motion N°6 ((shouldn't it be N°5?)), I offer my support to the motion. While I believe that this year is the final chance for G. Julius Caesar to attempt to secure Gaul, I believe we should give him the proper tools to get the job done.

[Garlan Gunter]

ARRIVAL OF EMBASSY FROM THE KINGDOM OF EGYPT

What an incongruous sight they made in the venerable hall of the Conscript Fathers! A fleshy, yet etiolated boy with the unhealthy, inbred Macedonian pallor and Asiatic adornments that gave away his membership of the ancient and decadent house of Ptolemy. A young military tribune of Rome, evidently ill at ease in the chamber to which neither birth nor office would usually admit him. Outside but within call, a small but more than ceremonial honour guard of troops, a sight of curiosity for the multitude - for despite their gaudy admixture of Roman arms and Alexandrian jewellery, they were nearly to a man Gauls, of the same race who had once burned the Capitol. Here then came Prince Ptolemy the Elder, his interpreter Lucius Septimius, and their small command of the already fabled, debauched but victorious Gabiniani...





Young Ptolemy speaks in a Greek too elaborately accented to be fluently understood by all but the best travelled and most learned Senators. Septimius, however, translates him into decent Latin competently and rapidly.

"Hail, pilgrim fathers! Ptolemy, Pharaoh of Upper and Lower Egypt, sends his friendly, loyal and grateful greeting in the person of myself, his elder son.

"Restored to his throne over backward, superstitious and rash traitors by the prompt action of the Senate and People of Rome, he seeks to acknowledge and repay his obligations and ensure amity all round.

"It has come to his attention, however, that some in this great city still favour the claims of the criminal, thief, and fugitive from royal justice, Rabirius Postumus. Rabirius was condemned in the King of Egypt's own courts; he cannot be pardoned nor his overblown demands met. Hearing, however, of the noble Cicero's opinion of this scoundrel's innocence, the King reluctantly agrees to let the matter rest here. He will neither seek to visit further punishment upon Rabirius nor answer any further petitions from this trickster.

"Instead he means to over gratitude where it is richly deserved - to the Roman Senate and People whose deeds directly and indirectly restored the Pharaoh, and rightful order, to Egypt."

A large chest of treasure is brought forth by Nubian slaves and presented to the Conscript Fathers for the City's treasury.



"Furthermore, my father appoints me to make a longer and more permanent stay in Rome. He means in future for our ancient kingdom to be ruled by a dual monarchy, as was Sparta, Macedon and even Rome of old, whose tradition lives in the annual Consuls. I therefore do humbly seek from your reverend fathers the boon of Roman citizenship, and adoption into a Roman clan of suitable high birth. I am also commanded to make consideration of a Roman bride, with the understanding that an alliance with the House of Ptolemy is a great honour in itself, to be met with appropriate gifts in turn."

It seems the prince and his tribune have finally said their piece...at least for now.

[Huey Long is a Republican]

An ambassador from King Burebista of Thrace has arrived in Rome. His biggest request is for an Alliance and guarantee with Rome for protection and aid in any conflict. In return, Thrace promises to become a Roman Puppet state and Burebista agrees to have any future child of his stay in Rome until they are of the age of 20 years as well as half of all loot gained from Thracian conquests.

OOC: if this is allowed, pls tell me.

[Kingpoleon]

Motion N°VI

Prince Ptolemy the Elder will immediately be granted Roman citizenship.

This has my full backing. His heritage is more noble than that of most in Rome, including several in this chamber. If not a man from the greatest Royal House, then who among us is worthy of the title of Citizen?

[DKrol]

On Motion N°6, I offer my support.

[Lumine]

M. Valerius Messalla Rufus (Consul): Order! No more motions will be accepted at this point. Debate may still continue, but voting is open on the following motions:

Introduced by the tribunes M. Coelius and C. Lucilius:

Motion N°1

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Introduced by senator M. Porcius Cato:

Motion N°2

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Motion N°3

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Introduced by proconsul Cn. Pompeius Magnus:

Motion N°4

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Introduced by senator L. Aurelius Cotta:

Motion N°5

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Introduced by senator P. Clodius Pulcher:

Motion N°6

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[DKrol]

On Motion N°1, I vote aye.

On Motion N°2, I vote aye.

On Motion N°3, I vote nay.

On Motion N°4, I vote aye.

On Motion N°5, I vote aye.

On Motion N°6, I vote aye.

[Dereich]

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I would ask Proconsul Pompey to clarify: what, exactly, is this disorder which is so dire as to require the temporary destruction of the legitimate state? Have the plebians risen up as in the time of Cincinatus? Not remotely! Are marauding barbarians threatening to strike the capital itself as in the Samnite Wars? Just the opposite! Is some great enemy prepared to lay waste to the Republic as in the Punic Wars? Of course not; Rome stands as the unchallenged master of the world.

Only Sulla has received the honor of dictatorial powers from this body, and only after civil wars and multiple purges of Senatorial families left no other choice but the revival of that ancient office. I can say with certainty that the situation of Sulla's time is not now present, as no purged Rome could contain both the good men of the Senate and the petty demagogues who now pretend to rule the street.

There is no crisis. The Senate's deliberations continue uninterrupted. The restored Tribuanate and popular assemblies elect representatives and deliberate uninterrupted. The Cursus Honorem and other elections continue without error. The other cities and states of the world seek to emulate Rome or to become Roman themselves. Except for a few errant malcontents, acting outside the authority of their offices, the Republic is at peace. Under the wise leadership of the Senate, Rome has become wealthy, powerful, and has gained the favor of the gods. Rome is at its zenith; there is no need to change what has made it great.

I vote Nay to this motion and urge my fellow Senators to do the same.

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On the subject of the aforementioned errant malcontents, I would have this body turn to examine the conduct of Proconsul G. J. Caesar. Regardless of whether you believe the fantastical missives coming from Gaul, there are several undeniable truths that must be considered. The first truth is that his term as Proconsul has expired. Six years ago this body took the step of granting Caesar an unprecedented five year term as proconsul. During that time, he has jumped at shadows; first this tribe, then that one. While taking little leave of the Senate's opinions, he has waged an undeclared war putting Roman lives at risk for the sake of his own glory. I do not fault the good men of the Senate for tolerating this behavior while Caesar acted under the legal authority of his proconsulship. But now? His term has expired. Caesar must be reigned in and recalled. In deference to the Senators who have supported his campaigns, I have offered the date of one year hence for his return, so that any campaigns in Gaul can be wound down and Roman interests protected. But return he must; the Senate, not the petty tyrannies of military tribunes, must direct the course of Roman policy.

Proconsul Pompey is correct, of course, that tradition holds that military leaders should have the right to spoils. But in the past, military leaders have been waging war with the authority of the Senate, not waging their own undeclared wars against tribes long since contained and hostile not to Rome, but only to Caesar. If Caesar is to continue to create new enemies of Rome and to waste Roman blood in pursuit of glory without even consulting the Senate before choosing new targets and fighting new enemies, it should be the Roman treasury which benefits, not Caesar.

I urge the Senate to vote Aye on both motions, or in the alternative, to vote Aye on motion two to show that Rome and the Senate wage war, not Caesar.

[Dereich]

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Another strange request by the Pompeian Factio! Does Proconsul Pompey intend to wage a war in Spain AND act as dictator to "restore safety to our great city and Italy" at the same time? Perhaps the great general has grown jealous and antsy at the so-called victories of his younger (former) father-in-law and wishes to regain the spotlight. Or perhaps Pompey would intend to use the raised legions for a different purpose...Regardless, I would ask the Senate to think carefully before indulging in Pompey's zeal.

For what purpose should new war be made against the Spanish barbarians? What provocations have they made against Rome? Even Caesar has attempted to justify his conflicts. Are we now to wage war simply to sate a lust for blood? They have not attacked Rome; these Spaniards seem more concerned with squabbling with each other than with challenging the Republic.

And putting aside justification, what would Rome gain by fighting these Spanish barbarians? The Northern Spaniards live in barely habitable mountain terrain, eking out a sad existence far from civilization and far from Roman supply lines There is little treasure to be had in Northern Spain, and what there is to be had comes at too high a cost. Pompey asks the Senate to enter a quagmire that is likely to be expensive in Roman lives and with little possible benefit and yet provides no justification for doing so! Reason and principle demand that the Senate vote Nay to this proposal.

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Again I will bring up the questions raised in my earlier motions. With whom are we at war? Is it all the Celtic peoples? When did the Senate declare such a conflict? What is the goal of the Senate and the People of Rome in such a conflict? Unless and until the Senate declares such, we are not at war in Gaul. Caesar has already gone well beyond his mandate. The Senate must be realistic: giving Proconsul Caesar a Senatorial mandate for his actions and sending new legions to Gaul will not lead to the subjugation of Gaul. Giving Caesar our blessing will unite the Gauls against us and scare away our friends and allies in the Gaulic tribes, especially our brothers and kinsman the Aedui. Caesar's "success" has been against scattered individual tribes who apparently had ill will towards Rome at heart. To unite and strengthen the Gaul's resolve by declaring them all to be our enemies is the height of folly.

There is no justification for spilling more Roman blood to benefit Caesar and Caesar alone. I urge the Senate to vote Nay to this proposal.

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I would ask the Senate to immediately dismiss this preposterous proposition. While the kind and deferential nature of the Egyptian King is gratifying and is an attitude deserving of Senatorial praise, citizenship would be a wild over-extension of that praise. Roman citizenship is a blessing of the gods, something that should never be bestowed without great contemplation. Even the Italians were kept from citizenship for hundreds of years until the Social War. How would the provincials, the loyal Hispanians, Gauls, Syrians, Africans, Sicilians, and Greeks who are today denied Roman citizenship feel about a foreign king being granted that privilege before themselves? And what of Roman allies and clients? How would they take such a slight? Or even the Italians, who fought for generations in the legions and threatened civil war before they could win citizenship. Should we denigrate their sacrifices as well?

To grant this motion is to invite a provincial uprising and the destruction of Roman foreign policy to please a foreigner unaware of the true value and treasure that we place on Roman citizenship. I vote Nay on the motion and urge the Senate to do likewise.

[DKrol]

On Motion N°1, I ask if Senator Marcus Porcius Cato has been in the streets of Rome. I ask if he has spoken to the Roman citizens. I ask if he feels safe to travel around Rome at night. Clearly the answer to all of these questions must be no! Rome is being molested by the roving gangs of the this city, bringing us to the point of anarchy in the streets. No man can feel safe moving about the city without a full legion around himself. There are rumblings all across Italy of uprisings and disloyalty, inspired by barbarians of the North and resurgent pirates from the South.

The strength of a dictator is necessary to restore order to our city or secure our safety in Italy. It is of the utmost importance that we are safe at home, both within Rome and across Italy. Only the strong military pressense of a dictator can secure Rome and Italy within the year's time. I would like to remind the members of this body that the term of dictator prescribed in the order is only for this year, not a sweeping multi-year term.

On Motion N°4, the purpose of raising the new legions is not to continue the war this year, if I am elected dictator. Time must be allocated to raising the legions. Time must be allocated to moving the legions to Hispania. Time must be allocated to the coordinating of efforts between the new legions and the legions already in Hispania. There is no way that all of these stages could be accomplished during the single year in which I, should this Senate grant it, would be serving as dictator.

As to why we should launch the war in the North of Hispania, I counter with a simpler question: Why should we not? Is Rome not the supreme military power in the world? Is it not our destiny to rule an empire over all the land under Jupiter's watchful eye? Having these barbarians prowling, growing, and plotting against us makes our Republic and our empire more and more unsafe every day we sit by.

We have the opportunity to finally squash the burdensome barbarians in Hispania and bring the whole of the region under the control of Rome. We must seize it!

On Motion N°6, I see no qualm with granting a dear friend of Rome, Prince Ptolemy the Elder, the honor of Roman citizenship. Not only will it show our respect for the Prince and his father, the great Pharaoh Ptolemy XII, it will also bind our nations together in a new and bold way. At this time, when enemies abound, it is important to remind our friends that they are our friends.

[GoTfan]

On Motion 1

(Raised by L. Aurelius Cotta)

It would seem that our friend Cato desires to, once again, act in the interest of the few privileged enough to not have trouble putting food in their bellies or tending to their land. Once again, our friend Cato desires to let the poor fall by the wayside in the name of preserving archaic tradition.

Gnaeus Pompey Magnus is the most honourable Roman to have existed, and is brother to my nephew Caesar by sacred oath! Rest assured, that any power granted to him, Pompey will lay down when this crisis has abated. This, Caesar swears on his life!

I vote aye on this motion, and urge those who support Caesar to do so as well.

[Kingpoleon]

On all the Motions:
Motion N°1: Nay. I would abstain, but I fully believe that a full year is too much unless we have guaranteed as to what Pompey plans to do. I do not want a man to be able to arrest Clodius or Cicero by his own judgment. If he pledges to arrest no Roman citizen without the permission of the full Senate, then I would abstain or vote yes, but it is too late for that. I would certainly extend this no more than six months.
Motion N°2: Nay. Gaius Julius Caesar is a great Roman, as dedicated to the people as Pompey and Crassus.
Motion N°3: Aye. This is a fully appropriate motion, and I myself intend to have a Treasury committee appointed immediately next year to report on the state of our treasury.
Motion N°4: Aye. We need a great general in Hispania, where he may fight the enemies of Rome.
Motion N°5: Aye. The legions of Caesar must remain confident that they and their leader have the full backing of the Senate, and I assure all of our legions that they have no greater friend than I in all of Rome.
Motion N°6: Aye. This is the most important motion. Egypt is our greatest ally in all the land, and Prince Ptolemy the Elder is from the noblest family in the world. He is a truly great man.

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

Motion N°1

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AYE
Introduced by senator M. Porcius Cato:

Motion N°2

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AYE
Motion N°3

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AYE
Introduced by proconsul Cn. Pompeius Magnus:

Motion N°4

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AYE
Introduced by senator L. Aurelius Cotta:

Motion N°5

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NAY
Introduced by senator P. Clodius Pulcher:

Motion N°6

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AYE

Due to Proconsul Crassus' service in the eastern provinces, he shall be represented by Gnaeus Domitus Calvinus in the Senate at Rome.

[YPestis25]

I stand in support of Motions 1-4, and 6. It is high time that the Republic had order and civility restored to it. I trust in the hand of Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus to guide the Republic through these troubled times and tor restore regular order to our Republic in short order.

[Lumine]

Cn. Domitius Calvinus (Consul): Order! The results are as follows:

Motion N°1

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This motion is narrowly passed.

Motion N°2

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This motion is passed with a reasonable majority.

Motion N°3

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This motion is passed with a reasonable majority.

Motion N°4

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This motion is passed with a reasonable majority.

Motion N°5

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This motion is narrowly rejected.

Motion N°6

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[/quote]

This motion is rejected with a strong majority.

[Kingpoleon]

How was Prince Ptolemy’s citizenship rejected??

[Lumine]

How was Prince Ptolemy’s citizenship rejected??

Player support is a very important factor, but not the sole one.

At this point in history Roman citizenship is still highly priced, to the point in which 40 years ago Rome had to go to war against Italians demanding citizenship, and not even the people of Cisalpine Gaul were granted citizenship until Julius Caesar (in what already was a controversial act). To grant citizenship to the likely heir of a foreign throne (amidst rumors that he might marry inside a Roman family) of a Kingdom so questioned as Egypt in this time period would be offensive and unacceptable to many Senators.

Cato successfully seized on that on what I judged to be an able peformance, and so I ruled it likely that most of the Senate would rather reject the proposal (after alarms were set at the percieved to be dangerous notion of Pompeius marrying into foreign royalty) than accept it.

As you see, the Senate can be fluid and a player can manage to surpass other players in the Senate, but it requires a "perfect storm" so to speak. This seems like the case for me.

[Kingpoleon]

Ah, good point.

I assume my own comments about Pompey pledging to not arrest any Roman citizen without the Senate’s approval will live on for thousands of years, as a high example of prophetic irony.

[Lumine]

Motion N°7:

Introduced by the consul T. Annius Milo:

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