can we talk about the aliens

[emailking]

The astrophysicist quoted in that article, Geraint Lewis, says he believes it's possible.  At least he did at the time of the article, approximately 2 years ago.  So, it seems, despite what you write here, the scientific community may not be in complete agreement with you.

There's nothing in that article that disagrees with what I said. I said myself it's theoretically possible. In your article, he makes all the same points about the energy requirements and negative energy. Which makes it infeasible and thus impossible from a practical standpoint.

Remember kids, there is nothing in physics that rules out time travel & faster than light travel. Don’t stop looking!

He's right about that. Nothing in physics that is currently known rules out faster than light travel (although it does rule out ordinary matter achieving faster than light speeds). That doesn't mean it's possible or that he thinks it's possible.

[136or142]

The astrophysicist quoted in that article, Geraint Lewis, says he believes it's possible.  At least he did at the time of the article, approximately 2 years ago.  So, it seems, despite what you write here, the scientific community may not be in complete agreement with you.

There's nothing in that article that disagrees with what I said. I said myself it's theoretically possible. In your article, he makes all the same points about the energy requirements and negative energy. Which makes it infeasible and thus impossible from a practical standpoint.

Remember kids, there is nothing in physics that rules out time travel & faster than light travel. Don’t stop looking!

He's right about that. Nothing in physics that is currently known rules out faster than light travel (although it does rule out ordinary matter achieving faster than light speeds). That doesn't mean it's possible or that he thinks it's possible.

Except in the article Geraint Lewis made no such comment about it being theoretically possible but practically impossible.  Lewis said it was theoretically possible AND potentially practically possible.

[emailking]

Except in the article Geraint Lewis made no such comment about it being theoretically possible but practically impossible.  Lewis said it was theoretically possible AND potentially practically possible.

To the extent you're trying to stretch this, anything is practically possible. It's potentially practically possible that I could spontaneously morph into an elephant. In fact, quantum mechanics specifically allows that to happen. All we have to do is figure out how to make it more likely and shape shifting will be a reality.

[Torie]

The odds that there are aliens out there somewhere are "astronomically" high, while the odds that any have visited earth ever, are infinitesimally small. Those who think aliens have visited, I put into the kook category. Sorry about that.

[136or142]

Except in the article Geraint Lewis made no such comment about it being theoretically possible but practically impossible.  Lewis said it was theoretically possible AND potentially practically possible.

To the extent you're trying to stretch this, anything is practically possible. It's potentially practically possible that I could spontaneously morph into an elephant. In fact, quantum mechanics specifically allows that to happen. All we have to do is figure out how to make it more likely and shape shifting will be a reality.

The issue, I suppose, is the likelihood of the practicality.  Your dismissing it out of hand I would argue is completely unscientific.

[emailking]

Your dismissing it out of hand I would argue is completely unscientific.

Well you would be arguing that incorrectly.

[136or142]

Your dismissing it out of hand I would argue is completely unscientific.

Well you would be arguing that incorrectly.

Not according to Geraint Lewis.

[emailking]

According to him:

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But yeah, I guess those quotes aren't inconsistent with him thinking that it is "potentially practically possible", as you put it.

Unscientific would be refusing to do an experiment because you've pre-judged the outcome, or throwing out data from an experiment because it does not align with your hypothesis. There's no experiment to do here.

[136or142]

According to him:

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But yeah, I guess those quotes aren't inconsistent with him thinking that it is "potentially practically possible", as you put it.

Unscientific would be refusing to do an experiment because you've pre-judged the outcome, or throwing out data from an experiment because it does not align from your hypothesis. There's no experiment to do here.

1.Nowhere though, for instance, does Lewis make the claims you did about faster than light travel, that, for instance, it would require more negative energy than is probably available.

This is what you wrote: "It is probably impossible for negative energies to exist in such large quantities, but in any case it cannot be harnessed due to the sheer amount needed.

Some physicists have tried worked on the problem to try to get around these requirements, but none have said they believe it will (be) sic possible."

You did not express this in terms of likelihood.  You implicitly wrote straight out 'it's (practically) impossible.'

2.Unscientific is also refusing to look at the actual evidence because 'we know it's just not (practically) possible.'

[emailking]

I looked at the evidence. I'm not convinced it's indicative of aliens or that faster than light travel occurred, nor do I think those are likely explanations for it.

[dead0man]

I'm actually not sure why you are so quick to dismiss the possibility of UFOs and space aliens.

well let me tell ya, it's because every freaking one of them so far has been BS.  It's like the "world is going to end soon" people (no matter if they are climate doomsayers, Jesus doomsayers, tech doomsayers, or whatever), every one of them has been wrong before, it makes sense to question the next guy making the same always wrong claims.  Or bigfoot/yeti believers, ghosties, telekawhatever, horoscopes, tarot, mind reading, copper bracelets and low fat diets...all woo all new claims about them should be heavily examined.  Like somebody said upthread, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and we never EVER get it.

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I have no idea what this has to do with anything.  FTL travel being possible might make aliens visiting us slightly more likely, but the odds are still ridiculously small and more importantly, it's not evidence that we've been visited.

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I don't know if the DoD has encouraged UFO kooks or not, but it wouldn't surprise me.  Makes it slightly easier to hide things during testing if all UFO enthusiasts are kooks.  They really don't need much help looking like kooks though.

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but again, a thing being possible doesn't mean it's happened.  This is not evidence.


But please, don't stop looking.  It would be pretty cool (assuming they didn't instantly kill us or put us in zoos) if there were aliens out there.  Just like it would be super cool if big foot existed or mind reading was possible.  But there is no good evidence for any of it.

[136or142]

I'm actually not sure why you are so quick to dismiss the possibility of UFOs and space aliens.

well let me tell ya, it's because every freaking one of them so far has been BS.  It's like the "world is going to end soon" people (no matter if they are climate doomsayers, Jesus doomsayers, tech doomsayers, or whatever), every one of them has been wrong before, it makes sense to question the next guy making the same always wrong claims.  Or bigfoot/yeti believers, ghosties, telekawhatever, horoscopes, tarot, mind reading, copper bracelets and low fat diets...all woo all new claims about them should be heavily examined.  Like somebody said upthread, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and we never EVER get it.

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I have no idea what this has to do with anything.  FTL travel being possible might make aliens visiting us slightly more likely, but the odds are still ridiculously small and more importantly, it's not evidence that we've been visited.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't know if the DoD has encouraged UFO kooks or not, but it wouldn't surprise me.  Makes it slightly easier to hide things during testing if all UFO enthusiasts are kooks.  They really don't need much help looking like kooks though.

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but again, a thing being possible doesn't mean it's happened.  This is not evidence.


But please, don't stop looking.  It would be pretty cool (assuming they didn't instantly kill us or put us in zoos) if there were aliens out there.  Just like it would be super cool if big foot existed or mind reading was possible.  But there is no good evidence for any of it.

So, what would count as evidence to you?

I suspect for you it would require actually personally seeing a UFO on the ground with the aliens outside it with the aliens having to do something humans can't do even as magic tricks.

This is why I'm personally completely dismissive of those who use this B.S line of 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.'  There is no such thing as extraordinary evidence, just regular evidence, and those who use the line are merely being completely dismissive while lying that they are open to claims.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11406-016-9779-7
Do Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence?

[emailking]

I suspect for you it would require actually seeing a UFO on the ground with the aliens outside it yourself with the aliens having to do something humans can't do even as magic tricks.

For me, that would probably be enough. If that's all that happened, I would consider other possibilities as well. But I cannot deny if this happened I would most likely find myself leaning strongly to an alien hypothesis.

[136or142]

I suspect for you it would require actually seeing a UFO on the ground with the aliens outside it yourself with the aliens having to do something humans can't do even as magic tricks.

For me, that would probably be enough. If that's all that happened, I would consider other possibilities as well. But I cannot deny if this happened I would most likely find myself leading strongly to an alien hypothesis.

Exactly.  So, that's basically my point with with and (probably) dead0man here.  Virtually nothing would convince you that aliens exist and are visiting earth.  The issue then becomes: is there any point in having a discussion with a person who will simply end up replying to everything either 'that doesn't prove anything' or 'that isn't sufficient evidence.'?

[emailking]

No, that's not true that virtually nothing would convince me that aliens are visiting Earth. You just laid out a scenario that would convince me. And if they were visiting Earth, I imagine that, and a whole lot more undeniable evidence would materialize very quickly. There might not be any point, from your perspective in discussing it with us. The reason I'm discussing it with you is I want to knock all this down as best I can for the benefit of others, particularly those who may be on the fence. Otherwise, there's little point in me arguing with someone who's convinced that an anecdotal story about strange lights in the sky mean aliens are visiting earth, despite the fact that far more plausible explanations are available.

[America's Sweetheart ❤/𝕿𝖍𝖊 𝕭𝖔𝖔𝖙𝖞 𝖂𝖆𝖗𝖗𝖎𝖔𝖗]

Being serious for a moment:
I think alien life almost definitely exists, given the sheer vastness of the universe, but the idea of little green men from Mars who fly around in super advanced spaceships is obviously pure fantasy. if aliens do exist, they're likely more like little insects or perhaps even smaller life forms than that, although it's not impossible that there's more advanced lifeforms than that somewhere out there. I personally wish little green men were real though, because that'd just be freaking awesome - I'd kidnap a few and keep them as slaves catering to my every whim, plus all the Snapchat stories of me and my alien slaves doing weird crap would be legendary.

[136or142]

No, that's not true that virtually nothing would convince me that aliens are visiting Earth. You just laid out a scenario that would convince me. And if they were visiting Earth, I imagine that, and a whole lot more undeniable evidence would materialize very quickly. There might not be any point, from your perspective in discussing it with us. The reason I'm discussing it with you is I want to knock all this down as best I can for the benefit of others, particularly those who may be on the fence. Otherwise, there's little point in me arguing with someone who's convinced that an anecdotal story about strange lights in the sky mean aliens are visiting earth, despite the fact that far more plausible explanations are available.

I never said any such thing.

Eye witness evidence of unexplained physical crafts (not just strange lights) is one source of evidence, but there is also physical evidence.

I can certainly understand that a person who doesn't believe in UFOs isn't going to look heavily into the data, but I think it's fair to expect a person who engages in debate on the topic is going to have at least a passing knowledge of the evidence that actually exists.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/chasing-ufos/articles/five-good-reasons-to-believe-in-ufos/

In regards to the physical evidence.  These were claims that people saw space craft on the ground and this was then matched by physical evidence showing that something unusual had affected (effected?) the ground.

This obviously isn't evidence itself that UFOs are driven by space aliens from some far distant planet, but it certainly is evidence of UFOs, and almost certainly not 'UFOs' from the U.S military.

(The people who claim U.S air force never want to acknowledge that logical holes exist in their theory as well. For instance, what is the point of the U.S air force having 20-40 year advanced technology if it never publicly uses it?   Or, how exactly did the U.S air force invent this advanced technology when there is no evidence of any physics or engineering theories to back it up?)

So, again.  I would be curious what reply you could give to me other than 'that doesn't prove anything' or 'that isn't enough evidence.'

[emailking]

Ok, I apologize for putting words in your mouth then.

As to your latter point, I'm reminded of a Richard Dawkins quote. Something to the effect that you don't need a degree in leprechology to argue leprechauns don't exist.

[136or142]

Ok, I apologize for putting words in your mouth then.

As to your latter point, I'm reminded of a Richard Dawkins quote. Something to the effect that you don't need a degree in leprechology to argue leprechauns don't exist.

No, but blind dismissal isn't contrary evidence or an argument either.

[P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong]

So glad Harry Reid did this. We need at least some of our leaders to be exploring the possibilities outside of our own (relatively/historically) small problems. In 1000 years, will people remember Trump and Hillary and Kim Jong-un, or will they remember first contact?

[ProudModerate2]

Being serious for a moment:
I think alien life almost definitely exists, given the sheer vastness of the universe, but the idea of little green men from Mars who fly around in super advanced spaceships is obviously pure fantasy. if aliens do exist, they're likely more like little insects or perhaps even smaller life forms than that, although it's not impossible that there's more advanced lifeforms than that somewhere out there.

You do understand that if you believe in the full evolutionary cycle of Homo sapiens, then we (humans) were at one time, in our past, only "smaller life forms" (as you say).
So if who we are today can evolve from such primitive life, who is to say that it cant happen on other worlds ?

If you were to ask humans 500 years ago, that one day we would build machines that can go to the moon (or Mars, which we will do in our near future), you would be laughed at. And 500 years is nothing but a tiny, tiny blip in time. So, if other life somewhere in the universe has evolved like ours to create "intelligent beings," who is to say that they have not existed longer than we have ?
And with time, comes advancement in technologies, like building "strange machines" that can go to the moon, or that can travel time and space to visit other solar systems and galaxies.

I leave you with this ....

[emailking]

I believe he's referring to alien life in our solar system or potentially within human reach over the eons (e.g. dozens or possibly hundreds of light years out). Most biologists believe intelligent life is a lot less likely to evolve than non-intelligent, macroscopic life.

[ProudModerate2]

I believe he's referring to alien life in our solar system or potentially within human reach over the eons (e.g. dozens or possibly hundreds of light years out). Most biologists believe intelligent life is a lot less likely to evolve than non-intelligent, macroscopic life.

No.
America's Sweetheart (user name) was clear when he/she said (and I quote) "the sheer vastness of the universe ."

Being serious for a moment:
I think alien life almost definitely exists, given the sheer vastness of the universe  ...

[dead0man]

So, what would count as evidence to you?

certainly more than what was shown in the OP.  If the majority of scientists said aliens were real and here, I'd except that it was likely that aliens were real and here.  I'd be more apt to believe it that way than if I saw a "ufo" land and "aliens" got out of it and did some "magic".  If I saw that I'd KNOW somebody was playing a trick on me (or I was seeing someone else have a trick played on them and I was a lucky witness).  There needs to be a lot of evidence, in the hands of REAL scientists that don't have a history of being ufo enthusiasts that can do repeatable science on the evidence that proves the case you're trying to make.  Anything less than that just isn't enough.


I'd like to add that I'd be shocked if we were the only life in the universe.  It's just too big.  But that's the problem with "visits", it's just too big.  Why, other than to visit us for the sake of visiting us, would any alien come here?  There is nothing (other than our life forms and the stuff our life forms create) in our solar system that doesn't exist everywhere else in the universe/galaxy and they're not going to know we exist because why would they?  Because of our "radio signals" flying away from us in every direction?  IF (and that's a big "if") they make it more than a few light years away from Earth, they've still only gone at max, a hundred light years.  That's just a tiny speck of the Milky Way.  (granted there are more than a few stars in that sphere.....as many as 512 it seems)  The chances that there is a space traveling life form in that 512 is slim, the odds they've noticed us are slimmer and the chances they've already traveled here slimmer still.

[emailking]

I believe he's referring to alien life in our solar system or potentially within human reach over the eons (e.g. dozens or possibly hundreds of light years out). Most biologists believe intelligent life is a lot less likely to evolve than non-intelligent, macroscopic life.

No.
America's Sweetheart (user name) was clear when he/she said (and I quote) "the sheer vastness of the universe ."

Being serious for a moment:
I think alien life almost definitely exists, given the sheer vastness of the universe  ...

Yes fair enough but I took the reference to Martians to indicate he was referring to a more local neighborhood for the rest of the post, as they would have to be in order to make any kind of contact with Earth. I suppose it's possible he didn't mean that. But in any case, since we don't know how likely intelligent life is, it's entirely possible we are the only intelligent life in the observable universe. I don't take that position personally, but it's a perfectly defensible one.