Would you terminate a pregnancy if the pre-natal test was positive for DS?
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  Would you terminate a pregnancy if the pre-natal test was positive for DS?
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Question: Would you?
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Author Topic: Would you terminate a pregnancy if the pre-natal test was positive for DS?  (Read 3642 times)
JA
Jacobin American
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« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2018, 03:34:18 PM »

I don't have the right to determine whether or not to terminate a pregnancy since I'm a male and it's the female's choice alone. However, I'd certainly encourage and support my partner to abort the fetus in that situation. There's no need to bring a child into this world to experience such difficulties in life - along with adding tremendous stress and burdens on us, the parents. The fetus never became a person, so I don't understand the objections.
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TexArkana
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« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2018, 03:37:15 PM »

Some people are fine with raising a child with Down's syndrome.
I wouldn't be, but I'm not positive I'd have it aborted. maybe I'd give it up for adoption.
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BoAtlantis
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« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2018, 04:07:48 PM »

They've already done research on this. And most people indeed do choose to terminate pregnancy if they the test came back positive.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1542-2011.2011.00109.x/abstract

23%-33% of prospective parents said they would terminate
46%-86% of parents with increased risk would terminate
89%-97% did terminate when they received positive diagnosis.

What people say and do are two different things. I somewhat lean against not terminating myself but I don't blame people that would terminate.

The last figure also puts me in doubt that 40-50% of people are truly "pro-life".
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DavidB.
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« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2018, 04:30:49 PM »

Some people are fine with raising a child with Down's syndrome.
I wouldn't be, but I'm not positive I'd have it aborted. maybe I'd give it up for adoption.
Who's going to adopt a child with Down's?
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TPIG
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« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2018, 04:38:05 PM »

Some people are fine with raising a child with Down's syndrome.
I wouldn't be, but I'm not positive I'd have it aborted. maybe I'd give it up for adoption.
Who's going to adopt a child with Down's?

http://www.ndsan.org/adoption-stories/i-adopted-a-child/

Obviously there are people out there willing to adopt a child with DS.  It's very disheartening to hear people on here acting as if the lives of those with Down Syndrome have absolutely no value. All people, especially the most vulnerable, have a basic right to live their lives to the best of their abilities.
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dead0man
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« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2018, 04:59:04 PM »

If you are pro-choice and give people saying yes sh**t for saying yes, then you're an asshole and aren't really pro-choice.  The entire freaking point of "pro-choice" is to give the pregnant woman agency over her own body.  That's ok with you until a pregnant woman has a reason to do it you don't like?  eat poop

You don't think it's possible to think something should be legal, yet morally objectionable?

of course, but people against it aren't acting like saying yes is objectionable, they're saying they are monsters and shaming them.  I'd suspect many of them would be glad to have the state step in to save these unborn children.  These people are not pro-choice, these people are just pro-abortion but only when it fits their world view.  Or, ya know, assholes.
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2018, 05:54:15 PM »

If you are pro-choice and give people saying yes sh**t for saying yes, then you're an asshole and aren't really pro-choice.  The entire freaking point of "pro-choice" is to give the pregnant woman agency over her own body.  That's ok with you until a pregnant woman has a reason to do it you don't like?  eat poop

You can be pro-choice and anti-eugenics.
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dead0man
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« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2018, 06:02:02 PM »

You can be pro-choice and anti-choice at the same time too apparently
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#TheShadowyAbyss
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« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2018, 07:22:43 PM »
« Edited: January 26, 2018, 07:26:22 PM by #TheShadowyAbyss »

I voted yes because I couldn't imagine myself raising a child with DS, I have a friend who's brother has it and the parents literally break down at night because they can't handle it. The parents now wish they went with the option to abort when able to. Don't get it wrong, they love the child dearly but they were 23 and 22 when the had him and thought they could handle it when in reality they couldn't.

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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2018, 08:06:26 PM »

The sight of Atlas denizens discovering that issues they had assumed were but simple culture war binaries are in fact extremely morally complex is always mildly amusing.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2018, 08:11:26 PM »


Honestly you could have concluded the post at this point.
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IceAgeComing
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« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2018, 10:49:08 AM »

The test for Downs; at least circa 1993; wasn't as clear cut as its being suggested that it is in this thread.  Perhaps its different in America but at least here there was generally a cheaper test that they'd do with everyone that would indicate whether a person may have Downs; and then a later test that they'd do that was more precise but expensive on those who were positive to the above - I don't know if that was just a thing that the NHS did at the time to save money or a general thing.  My Mum was told that I might have had Downs; I don't and I think that everyone is glad that I didn't have it.

The only answer that most of us could give is "I don't know" since this is something that only people who've been through it can fully understand.  My hunch is that I'd be inclined to seek a termination since bringing up a Downs syndrome child is hard and honestly at this point I think that I'd be terrible at it and kids like that need very good parents, however it'd be a decision that my partner at that time and myself would have to collectively decide together.  I have huge amounts of respect for parents who take on that role and do it very well though; it must be incredibly hard...
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afleitch
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« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2018, 01:51:55 PM »

Increased and welcome acceptance of people with Downs Syndrome and other conditions leads people being more willing to have high risk pregnancies and reducing their likelihood in selectively terminating.

Please correct me if I'm wrong ... but assuming "high risk pregnancies" are universally viewed as a negative, it almost sounds like you're saying the acceptance of people with DS is a bad development?...

Absolutely not. I don't think you understand the term. Having twins is technically a high risk pregnancy.
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Badger
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« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2018, 06:15:21 PM »
« Edited: January 27, 2018, 06:17:49 PM by Badger »

Some people are fine with raising a child with Down's syndrome.

yeah, but why?

If you really have to ask, no explanation will convince you.

And can I just say that I find posts issuing blanket condemnations of people who would not terminate a pregnancy under such circumstances AND those issuing blanket condemnations of those who would wholly repugnant. I won't bother to use the term "equally repugnant" because that just lends itself to a foolish and pointless debate as to which side is "better". Simply repugnant.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2018, 06:56:23 PM »

I'd terminate any pregnancy.
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shua
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« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2018, 08:12:05 PM »

They've already done research on this. And most people indeed do choose to terminate pregnancy if they the test came back positive.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1542-2011.2011.00109.x/abstract

23%-33% of prospective parents said they would terminate
46%-86% of parents with increased risk would terminate
89%-97% did terminate when they received positive diagnosis.

What people say and do are two different things. I somewhat lean against not terminating myself but I don't blame people that would terminate.

The last figure also puts me in doubt that 40-50% of people are truly "pro-life".

If people know that they are not going to abort regardless of the results, they are less likely to test.
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MATTROSE94
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« Reply #66 on: January 28, 2018, 09:08:33 AM »

I have a couple co-workers know a couple of people with DS and neither of then have have tentacles covered with poisonous spikes protruding from their eye sockets.
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HillGoose
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« Reply #67 on: January 28, 2018, 09:41:38 AM »

all the yes people believe in Nazi eugenics and will be punished in hell for it.
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« Reply #68 on: January 28, 2018, 09:45:28 AM »

No, Nazi eugenics was killing people already born with Down Syndrome. No one here has supported that.

This scenario is comparable to Iceland, not Nazi Germany.
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HillGoose
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« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2018, 09:49:32 AM »

No, Nazi eugenics was killing people already born with Down Syndrome. No one here has supported that.

This scenario is comparable to Iceland, not Nazi Germany.

Iceland is no better. It's still eugenics and God will see the people who kill those with disabilities burn in hell for it, rightfully.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2018, 07:27:28 PM »

I could not, personally, consider such a decision. I would not raise my moral objections to a stranger or a friend on what is, for almost everybody, an extremely tough decision to make. I could not and would not ever personally support an abortion that does not protect the mother in some way, shape, or form, but I trust people in their own interpretation of this. To have different world views and still be able to respect one another is an important piece of what I believe to be the heart and soul of what I call progress: the goal of understanding one another.

I am not a king or a god to judge someone else’s decisions on very delicate topics. To do so would go completely against my religious beliefs, and so I don’t intend to discuss this much further with all of you - especially considering the lack of maturity in this thread. It clearly brings out the worst in us, and that is deeply saddening.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #71 on: January 30, 2018, 02:12:51 PM »

They've already done research on this. And most people indeed do choose to terminate pregnancy if they the test came back positive.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1542-2011.2011.00109.x/abstract

23%-33% of prospective parents said they would terminate
46%-86% of parents with increased risk would terminate
89%-97% did terminate when they received positive diagnosis.

What people say and do are two different things. I somewhat lean against not terminating myself but I don't blame people that would terminate.

The last figure also puts me in doubt that 40-50% of people are truly "pro-life".

If people know that they are not going to abort regardless of the results, they are less likely to test.

This exactly what my wife and I did during her pregnancy. I voted no on the poll and yet... the flesh is weak. We didn't want to deal with temptation to murder our child because they'd be disabled or a challenge to care for, so we opted out of the Down Syndrome screening.
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Oldiesfreak1854
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« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2018, 05:43:08 PM »

Never (not a left-winger), and doing so should be a felony.
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IceAgeComing
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« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2018, 07:29:52 PM »

Never (not a left-winger), and doing so should be a felony.

Assuming that this is a special rule and not just part of a wider abortion ban; how would this be implemented?  Say that a person decided to have an abortion independently of any Downs diagnosis which comes through after they've made the decision: would you criminalise them?  To do so would seem to be wrong in my eyes; and to me is a big reason why you can't start criminalising based on things like this.  It also would likely create a situation that is nasty for the child who's mother has made a decision that she doesn't want to look after the kid: and that either means that the kid has to go through a care system that's very hostile to children generally but especially children with special needs; or it'll grow up in a family environment that may well not be overly friendly - especially when you add in the fact that children with syndromes like Downs require lots of hard work to bring up correctly and many people, I'd include myself in this, aren't suitable for the job.  To not do so would also seem to be against the spirit of what you support as well though...  Plus it begs the question that if Downs gets this protected class: what other disabilities should be similarly protected? 

That's why I think that there's a very big difference on this issue between the personal question of whether you would do it and the legal question of whether or not it should be illegal.  I think that the former is a complex issue that none of us will know what we'd do until it happens to us - DC Al Fine brings up exactly the same point from a totally different perspective and its one that I think is very interesting - and the legal side of things which I think is slightly more clear cut in that when you start to ban people from having abortions for particular reasons you run the risk of criminalising people who've made the decision entirely separate of that diagnosis.  Its certainly not something that I'd seek to ban nor do I think that its possible to ban without adversely harming some women unfairly.
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HillGoose
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« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2018, 08:14:34 PM »

Never (not a left-winger), and doing so should be a felony.

Assuming that this is a special rule and not just part of a wider abortion ban; how would this be implemented?  Say that a person decided to have an abortion independently of any Downs diagnosis which comes through after they've made the decision: would you criminalise them?  To do so would seem to be wrong in my eyes; and to me is a big reason why you can't start criminalising based on things like this.  It also would likely create a situation that is nasty for the child who's mother has made a decision that she doesn't want to look after the kid: and that either means that the kid has to go through a care system that's very hostile to children generally but especially children with special needs; or it'll grow up in a family environment that may well not be overly friendly - especially when you add in the fact that children with syndromes like Downs require lots of hard work to bring up correctly and many people, I'd include myself in this, aren't suitable for the job.  To not do so would also seem to be against the spirit of what you support as well though...  Plus it begs the question that if Downs gets this protected class: what other disabilities should be similarly protected? 

That's why I think that there's a very big difference on this issue between the personal question of whether you would do it and the legal question of whether or not it should be illegal.  I think that the former is a complex issue that none of us will know what we'd do until it happens to us - DC Al Fine brings up exactly the same point from a totally different perspective and its one that I think is very interesting - and the legal side of things which I think is slightly more clear cut in that when you start to ban people from having abortions for particular reasons you run the risk of criminalising people who've made the decision entirely separate of that diagnosis.  Its certainly not something that I'd seek to ban nor do I think that its possible to ban without adversely harming some women unfairly.

people who kill others based on a disability will burn in hell.
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