Why is the left in Ireland so small?

[ObserverIE]

The Civil War as an issue basically disappeared once the Civil War generation died away (actually much earlier among most of the public, but the bitterness remained among politicians, perhaps because it was a war in which - unusually - political figures had a high death rate).

I suspect that was really not the case in Kerry, where there were a lot of atrocities on both sides and the bitterness lasted, nor in the rest of Munster to a lesser extent. Even in an area like mine which was quiet during the Civil War (having been one of the hotspots during the War of Independence) there was still a knowledge as to who was or had been who (and consequently what not to say to whom) as late as the 80s. The Blueshirt period lengthened the bitterness well into the 1930s and in my experience FGers tend to harp back more to the Civil War than FFers do.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

How powerful is trade unionism in Ireland btw?

[ObserverIE]

How powerful is trade unionism in Ireland btw?

Much less powerful than it was in the days of social partnership under FF (much less reach outside the public sector) or during the 70s and 80s (before the advent of social partnership) and FG has set its face against a renewal of social partnership, but less anti-union legislation than in the UK. The recession also meant a weakening of bargaining power but unions in sectors such as transport have been able to flex their muscles again in the last year or so.

Most trade union members traditionally would have voted for FF.

[Lord Halifax]

I also wouldn't say that the Irish Labour Party are particularly left wing anymore - when they were last in government they hardly held the government back from doing very right wing things.  If you thought that the Lib Dems were useless in the UK; well; you haven't seen nothing until you look at the Irish Labour Party. 

Irish Labour has been eaten up by their role as junior partner to a Conservative party pro-austerity party like Fine Gael.

Its a Social Liberal party for the progressive upper middle class in Dublin with a bit of legacy vote in certain places around the island, but the latter is diminishing.

This is somewhat of a myth, the social liberal vote - which was only important in a few places - abandoned them totally in 2016 to the effect that they now have no seats in Dublin South of the River or in the City Centre area as a whole. Their provincial legacy vote is where they have survived.

I wasn't so much thinking of their voters as their leadership, general ethos and whose interests they have been working for. In that sense its a party for the progressive upper middle class in Dublin. I probably should have divided that sentence into two.

"Its a Social Liberal party for the progressive upper middle class in Dublin. It has a bit of legacy vote in certain places around the island, but that is diminishing."

On a related note we need one of you Irish posters to unequivocally tell Miles Lunn et al that FG is not a centrist party, but firmly on the centre-right, and every bit as Conservative as e.g. the Moderates in Sweden. Being somewhat socially liberal does not make you centrist in Western Europe.

[ObserverIE]

On a related note we need one of you Irish posters to unequivocally tell Miles Lunn et al that FG is not a centrist party, but firmly on the centre-right, and every bit as Conservative as e.g. the Moderates in Sweden. Being somewhat socially liberal does not make you centrist in Western Europe.

What he said.

I would describe the current leadership as being economically centre-right (with the emphasis on "right") but socially liberal (secularist in the Irish context). The Cameron/Osborne wing of Conservatism or Reinfeldt's Moderates would probably be a good enough comparison. The grassroots aren't necessarily the same.

[DC Al Fine]

So who do the weekly massgoers who don't like abortion, gay marriage etc vote for? FF? Random independents?

[ObserverIE]

So who do the weekly massgoers who don't like abortion, gay marriage etc vote for? FF? Random independents?

Traditionally, all over the spectrum although with lower proportions to Labour or Sinn Féin. There are also more weekly Massgoers than one would think if one was only to read the Irish Times or follow Irish Twitter; the exit poll at the last election put weekly attendance at 34% and monthly at 49% with the highest level of monthly+ observance (67%) among FFers and the lowest (28%) among Green Party supporters.

[DC Al Fine]

So who do the weekly massgoers who don't like abortion, gay marriage etc vote for? FF? Random independents?

Traditionally, all over the spectrum although with lower proportions to Labour or Sinn Féin. There are also more weekly Massgoers than one would think if one was only to read the Irish Times or follow Irish Twitter; the exit poll at the last election put weekly attendance at 34% and monthly at 49% with the highest level of monthly+ observance (67%) among FFers and the lowest (28%) among Green Party supporters.

Thanks for the answer.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Most trade union members traditionally would have voted for FF.

It was often noted by those who paid attention to such things, that most of the Irish building labourers and nurses who came here in such numbers in the postwar decades and o/c voted monolithically Labour seemed largely to support Fianna Fail back home and pretty clearly never saw a contradiction.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Most trade union members traditionally would have voted for FF.

It was often noted by those who paid attention to such things, that most of the Irish building labourers and nurses who came here in such numbers in the postwar decades and o/c voted monolithically Labour seemed largely to support Fianna Fail back home and pretty clearly never saw a contradiction.

Sean Lemass liked to say that Fianna Fail had made the Labour Party redundant in Ireland. There were many trade union leaders who acted likewise - Irish TUs having a reputation for both a) militancy and b) strong conservatism (and sometimes back in the day more than a whiff of incense).

I guess the same image holds for Irish workers in the UK, although it helps if your preferred faction of the UK Labour Party is the Jurassic (no, wait, Pre-Cambrian) Right.

[EPG]

What is it about the very Catholic, post-colonial economic periphery with high emigration, a tradition of low-skilled non-unionised labouring, widespread land ownership, and no stationary industry, that makes Irish parties not look like cadres of European socialists? Plus, even given those unpromising initial conditions,

in Ireland up to the 1960s, [...] the Labour Party was strongest in rural towns and weaker among farmers and Dubliners. Why? More trade unionism, labour unrest and agrarian revolt in rural areas; strong religious observance in cities; Fianna Fáil was the welfare state.

[EPG]

This isn't something that I'm sure on and perhaps someone with more knowledge can correct me on: but this might also have been a factor in the many splits like the Irish Labour Party had in the 80s and 90s which weakened the party and probably contributed into turning them into what they've become: a party that's left wing on paper only.

I can't honestly think of what you mean, if anything Labour consolidated during that period by out-lasting and absorbing a lot of centre-left parties. 92 was a very good election for them. Ultimately what did for them was the rise of Sinn Féin. As for the far-left parties including ex-Labour splitters like Joe Higgins, they never advanced beyond one-man personality politics until 2011.

* - How Right-Wing were Clann na Talmhan? Let's just say in the late 1930s its leader in one speech positively compared himself to Hitler.

I think this is unfair, as you can find similar statements among members of every political party at the time except perhaps Fianna Fáil. As I wrote elsewhere, CnaT were more militant in support of their deprived economic base than Labour, until they all entered government in 1948 and it didn't matter.

Irish Labour has been eaten up by their role as junior partner to a Conservative party pro-austerity party like Fine Gael.

Its a Social Liberal party for the progressive upper middle class in Dublin with a bit of legacy vote in certain places around the island, but the latter is diminishing.

They have two seats in Dublin, each in very average areas. One north of the airport and the other in the north-west semi-d suburbs. Those people you talk about hate Labour as being insufficiently perfect (high expectations have killed all Irish middle-class parties), and form the entire hinterland of the Social Democrats, give significant support to Greens and AAA-PBP, and I bet even FG beat Labour in that demographic.

Often forgotten: Labour spent the last two weeks of the 2011 campaign reversing their cumbersome stance in favour of a Gilmore left-led government, and proclaiming instead that they would be better coalition partners for Fine Gael than the right-wing independents or Fianna Fáil. Many of those votes that sent them to second place were always borrowed from people who didn't really sympathise with doctrinaire left-wing politics, who might otherwise have gone along with the newfound popularity of Enda Kenny and Sinn Féin, and they retracted their support pretty fast. Labour may have been analytically correct because their bogeyman in 2011 ended up happening in 2016.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

How powerful is trade unionism in Ireland btw?

Much less powerful than it was in the days of social partnership under FF (much less reach outside the public sector) or during the 70s and 80s (before the advent of social partnership) and FG has set its face against a renewal of social partnership, but less anti-union legislation than in the UK. The recession also meant a weakening of bargaining power but unions in sectors such as transport have been able to flex their muscles again in the last year or so.

Most trade union members traditionally would have voted for FF.

If a trade union bureaucrat wanted to enter politicians, do they do so as Labour politicians, or is the party completely divorced from the movement now?

[EPG]

How powerful is trade unionism in Ireland btw?

Much less powerful than it was in the days of social partnership under FF (much less reach outside the public sector) or during the 70s and 80s (before the advent of social partnership) and FG has set its face against a renewal of social partnership, but less anti-union legislation than in the UK. The recession also meant a weakening of bargaining power but unions in sectors such as transport have been able to flex their muscles again in the last year or so.

Most trade union members traditionally would have voted for FF.

If a trade union bureaucrat wanted to enter politicians, do they do so as Labour politicians, or is the party completely divorced from the movement now?

No, could be Labour, SF or the Socialist Party / AAA / Solidarity, or FF.