Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
June 25, 2019, 12:44:24 pm
News: Please delete your old personal messages.

  Atlas Forum
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: Gustaf, afleitch, Hash, Both Sides™)
  South Africa's new president wants to redistribute land from white farmers
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 Print
Author Topic: South Africa's new president wants to redistribute land from white farmers  (Read 2498 times)
#TheShadowyAbyss
LibertarianRepublican
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10,255
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: February 27, 2018, 09:55:22 am »

http://www.businessinsider.com/south-africa-cyril-ramaphosa-wants-to-confiscate-white-farmers-land-2018-2?IR=T

Quote

Yesterday Ramaphosa addressed the nation's parliament in Cape Town and made clear that his priority is to heal the divisions and injustice of the past, going all the way back to the original European colonists in the 1600s taking land from the indigenous tribes.

Ramaphosa called this "original sin", and stated that he wants to see "the return of the land to the people from whom it was taken… to heal the divisions of the past."

How does he plan on doing that?

Confiscation. Specifically-- confiscation without compensation.
Logged
Frodo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18,200
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2018, 10:25:07 am »

Robert Mugabe 2.0 here we go!

Since it is likely there will be a mass emigration of white South Africans (largely Afrikaners), where does everyone think they will seek refuge?  South America?
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 62,454
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2018, 11:04:52 am »

Meanwhile the great heroes of the DA have done such a bang-up job of running Western Cape that Cape Town is about to run out of water.

Robert Mugabe 2.0 here we go!

Cyril Ramaphosa is many, many things. That is one thing he is absolutely not.
Logged
Santander
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13,528
Taiwan


Political Matrix
E: 3.54, S: 4.78

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2018, 11:11:53 am »

Since it is likely there will be a mass emigration of white South Africans (largely Afrikaners), where does everyone think they will seek refuge?  South America?

They've been leaving for years...
Logged
DavidB.
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 11,770
Netherlands


Political Matrix
E: 0.06, S: 6.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2018, 11:58:47 am »

Our government should offer them Dutch citizenship and welcome them home before it's too late. The more, the merrier.
Logged
DC Al Fine
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12,596
Canada


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2018, 12:06:13 pm »

Our government should offer them Dutch citizenship and welcome them home before it's too late. The more, the merrier.

That would be a fun political what if. How would 100k Afrikaner refugees vote in the Netherlands?
Logged
DavidB.
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 11,770
Netherlands


Political Matrix
E: 0.06, S: 6.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2018, 12:06:39 pm »

Our government should offer them Dutch citizenship and welcome them home before it's too late. The more, the merrier.
That would be a fun political what if. How would 100k Afrikaner refugees vote in the Netherlands?
SGP and PVV.
Logged
Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 49,126
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2018, 12:27:07 pm »

That is ridiculous.

The people owning the land now have nothing to do with the people a couple hundred years ago.

You could talk about a small historical solidarity tax of some sort, but not simply confiscating their land. This will only lead to mass emigration and to a worse agricultural situation.
Logged
DC Al Fine
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12,596
Canada


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2018, 12:39:47 pm »

Our government should offer them Dutch citizenship and welcome them home before it's too late. The more, the merrier.
That would be a fun political what if. How would 100k Afrikaner refugees vote in the Netherlands?
SGP and PVV.

I'm sure a lot of them would, but it's not like all of DA's white vote is hardcore Calvinists and white nationalists. I don't really see them having a lot of lefties, but VVD/D66 could do ok with them, no?
Logged
DavidB.
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 11,770
Netherlands


Political Matrix
E: 0.06, S: 6.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2018, 12:44:45 pm »

I'm sure a lot of them would, but it's not like all of DA's white vote is hardcore Calvinists and white nationalists. I don't really see them having a lot of lefties, but VVD/D66 could do ok with them, no?
Not sure about D66, but CDA and VVD could also do well with Afrikaners, sure. Who really knows, though.

You could talk about a small historical solidarity tax of some sort, but not simply confiscating their land. This will only lead to mass emigration and to a worse agricultural situation.
Who cares if the economy goes to sh**t when devil whitey is gone?
Logged
parochial boy
parochial_boy
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,413


Political Matrix
E: -8.38, S: -6.78

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2018, 01:23:30 pm »

Come on people, if we have learnt one thing about South Africa in recent months, it is that it is a functioning democracy with strong institutions and the rule of law. That is why Zuma isn't president any more for a start. I am tempted to call this horse dung because of what we know about Ramaphosa and because of what the non-insane SA press has been reporting about his arrival in power.

SA isn't Zim and isn't going to become Zim, end of story (and land distribution is an issue, like it or not, because of how grotesquely unequal the country is, especially given the failure of "willing buyer, willing seller")

I'm sure a lot of them would, but it's not like all of DA's white vote is hardcore Calvinists and white nationalists. I don't really see them having a lot of lefties, but VVD/D66 could do ok with them, no?
Not sure about D66, but CDA and VVD could also do well with Afrikaners, sure. Who really knows, though.

You could talk about a small historical solidarity tax of some sort, but not simply confiscating their land. This will only lead to mass emigration and to a worse agricultural situation.
Who cares if the economy goes to sh**t when devil whitey is gone?
It is really hard to predict how Afrikaners would vote in the Netherlands, as the reasons they vote DA are just simply not replicable in Holland. There are plenty of otherwise liberal, progressive Saffers who vote DA and who happily have a viewpoint on their home country that seems completely at odds with the way they view just about every other issue (and SA is still intensely racist, like, spend a week there and you will hear racism that would be completely out of order in Europe).

And calling them Dutch probably wouldn't go down well anyway...

Plenty of South Africans in the UK are British citizens and can vote, but I have no idea how they do (take a guess based on Putney and Wimbledon?), and they tend to be more urban and liberal than the Afrikaners anyway
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 62,454
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2018, 02:42:05 pm »

I am tempted to call this horse dung because of what we know about Ramaphosa and because of what the non-insane SA press has been reporting about his arrival in power.

Yes. He is, I think it's fair to say, not exactly on the radical wing of the ANC. This BBC profile of him isn't bad.

Quote
SA isn't Zim and isn't going to become Zim, end of story (and land distribution is an issue, like it or not, because of how grotesquely unequal the country is, especially given the failure of "willing buyer, willing seller")

The ANC also has a long history of talking a good game over the land issue and then, curiously, doing very little about it. Zuma was particularly notable in this respect.
Logged
TheDeadFlagBlues
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,814
Mexico


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2018, 02:42:25 pm »

Ramaphosa is pretty exposed due the role he played in the Marikana killings so I would not be surprised if he's somewhat serious about this - he needs a way to appeal to restive youth in the townships and to guard against the EFF.

Anyways, the idea that this is "racist" is pretty inane - due to the way it's framed, it sounds that way and that's intentional but, in practice, land reform is a very typical proposal in extremely unequal societies where agrarian life still matters and evidence shows that it tends to be a productive proposal that raises yields, at least insofar as tenancy matters.

Confiscating land and breaking up farms that practice industrial agriculture and that are capital-intensive is very stupid, of course, and I have no faith in the ANC - of course, I have no faith in the DA either, which is a joke. That said, any reasonable party on the left would attempt to do sweeping land reform in South Africa.
Logged
TheDeadFlagBlues
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,814
Mexico


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2018, 02:43:50 pm »
« Edited: February 27, 2018, 02:51:28 pm by TheDeadFlagBlues »

I am tempted to call this horse dung because of what we know about Ramaphosa and because of what the non-insane SA press has been reporting about his arrival in power.

Yes. He is, I think it's fair to say, not exactly on the radical wing of the ANC. This BBC profile of him isn't bad.

Quote
SA isn't Zim and isn't going to become Zim, end of story (and land distribution is an issue, like it or not, because of how grotesquely unequal the country is, especially given the failure of "willing buyer, willing seller")

The ANC also has a long history of talking a good game over the land issue and then, curiously, doing very little about it. Zuma was particularly notable in this respect.

In rhetorical terms, the ANC wants to "kill the boer, kill the farmer". In practice, the ANC is filled with corrupt Afrikaners from the National Party and is on friendly terms with powerful Afrikaners. Ignoramuses notice the rhetoric and clutch their pearls - people who know about South Africa knows that the rhetoric is an intentional strategy to remind Black South Africans "who really stands for them" and the struggles against Apartheid, which is all the ANC has to offer at this point.

The idea that South Africa is reverse racist or is a terrible place to be white is so inane that it's a gutbuster. The fear of Blacks ruling over the whites is so intense that I see that Europeans and Americans fall victim to strange Stormfront-esque characterizations of South Africa that have no basis in reality. Yes, South Africa is dysfunctional and a dumpster fire but it's ultimately a stable country and the ANC is more akin to the PRI or the INC than any of the comparisons that are usually made.
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 62,454
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2018, 02:51:31 pm »

In rhetorical terms, the ANC wants to "kill the boer, kill the farmer". In practice, the ANC is filled with corrupt Afrikaners from the National Party and is on friendly terms with powerful Afrikaners.

And is therefore significantly more likely in practice support gunning down striking platinum miners (to pick an entirely hypothetical example) than that, yes.

Quote
Ignoramuses notice the rhetoric and clutch their pearls - people who know about South Africa knows that the rhetoric is an intentional strategy to remind Black South Africans "who really stands for them" and the struggles against Apartheid, which is all the ANC has to offer at this point.

The sad part is that this is a much better deal than what the DA has on offer: i.e. water shortages in major metropolitan areas.
Logged
mvd10
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,766


Political Matrix
E: 2.58, S: -2.61

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2018, 03:11:42 pm »

Our government should offer them Dutch citizenship and welcome them home before it's too late. The more, the merrier.

Saakasjvili, 100k Afrikaners, a few million Dutch American calvinists after the crazy lefties take over in the US. Now I finally know the meaning of kansenparels. So beautiful Cry. Open borders please!
Logged
parochial boy
parochial_boy
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,413


Political Matrix
E: -8.38, S: -6.78

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2018, 04:14:58 pm »

In rhetorical terms, the ANC wants to "kill the boer, kill the farmer". In practice, the ANC is filled with corrupt Afrikaners from the National Party and is on friendly terms with powerful Afrikaners.

And is therefore significantly more likely in practice support gunning down striking platinum miners (to pick an entirely hypothetical example) than that, yes.

Quote
Ignoramuses notice the rhetoric and clutch their pearls - people who know about South Africa knows that the rhetoric is an intentional strategy to remind Black South Africans "who really stands for them" and the struggles against Apartheid, which is all the ANC has to offer at this point.

The sad part is that this is a much better deal than what the DA has on offer: i.e. water shortages in major metropolitan areas.

This, I mean, I've ranted about this before, but the DA has some quite spectacularly unpleasant people and it makes a lot of sense that your average black South African has absolutely no inclination to vote for them
Logged
Pennsylvania Deplorable
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 464


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2018, 11:17:44 pm »

Unfortunately, the American (and world) media has ignored the violence and discrimination against whites in South Africa in favor of a BS narrative about "a rainbow nation at peace with itself and the world" and making Mandela into a saint, even as the very president who ended apartheid recently admitted that he was duped and the ANC never intended to protect minority rights. As a result of this and the "you can't be racist against whites" mentality, the US and Europe have found white South Africans to be just about the only group unable to qualify for refugee status.

They're a highly economically productive people. If the US offered to take them in (or perhaps Australia, Argentina, Canada, or even Russia), it would help us and South Africa would be devastated. Unfortunately, I doubt we will, at least not until land confiscation turns into open war. Either way, South Africa is going down the road to Zimbabwe and even the black population will be worse off for it. Perhaps Trump will surprise me and take action or at least call attention to the issue (which is mainly talked about outside of SA by the alt right, for obvious reasons).
Logged
Pennsylvania Deplorable
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 464


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2018, 11:41:39 pm »

The idea that South Africa is reverse racist or is a terrible place to be white is so inane that it's a gutbuster. The fear of Blacks ruling over the whites is so intense that I see that Europeans and Americans fall victim to strange Stormfront-esque characterizations of South Africa that have no basis in reality. Yes, South Africa is dysfunctional and a dumpster fire but it's ultimately a stable country and the ANC is more akin to the PRI or the INC than any of the comparisons that are usually made.
White farmers in South Africa are murdered at such a high rate that it is the most dangerous profession in the world. They're more likely to be killed than police officers in South Africa are. They're murdered at a rate far higher than is seen for the general population even in Honduras, Venezuela, and other countries that lead the world in violence. Unlike most murders in almost every country, the victims rarely ever know their killers. Additionally, these killings are characterized by extreme brutality including, but not limited to rape (often in front of family members forced to watch), genital mutilation, being hacked into dozens of pieces, being burned alive, babies drowned in boiling water, boiling water poured on people's faces and down their throats, etc. The level of cruelty match ISIS.

The police do nothing to protect them and the government actively opposes attempts to create militias for self defense. The Constitutional Court has ruled that the "shoot the Boer" song is "an incitement to genocide" and yet it is still sung routinely by ANC leaders. While it's true the ANC is mostly posturing and unlikely to seize all the land, the reason why they need to push this rhetoric is twofold. Reason one is that a large portion of their party is demanding it, especially younger supporters. Reason two is the Economic Freedom Fighters party, headed by former ANC Youth League leader Julius Malema, openly seek to emulate the tactics of Robert Mugabe and have made confiscating white owned property their top campaign promise. Here are some of their slogans:
Img

Img

Yet, even as this rhetoric is increasingly mainstream and black on white violent crime rates are astronomical (and defined by a level of planning and brutality far beyond robberies gone wrong), and even as Black Economic Empowerment and affirmative action block qualified whites from jobs, forcing tens of thousands into squatter camps, we're told that the extremists are whites who don't want their grandchildren to be a reviled minority in a third world country.

One last thing. It's not reverse racist. It's just racist.
Logged
TheDeadFlagBlues
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,814
Mexico


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2018, 03:09:11 am »
« Edited: February 28, 2018, 03:20:38 am by TheDeadFlagBlues »

The number of farmers murdered each year is a politicized statistic - racists would like you to believe that anyone murdered on a farm is a white farm-owner. In practice, the compiled statistics show that x people were murdered on farms, including small non-commercial farms. The murder rate, thus, is totally blown out of proportion because racists, who have agendas, want you to believe that it makes sense to assume that anyone murdered on a farm is a farmer, which is absurd considering that a person on a farm in a given moment is likely to be a Black farmhand. We have no idea what the landowner murder rate is - we'll never know because statistics are not compiled on this.

The "shoot the farmer" rhetoric is, just that, rhetoric. I'm sure that the EFF, which is basically national Bolshevism for Black South Africans, actually believes in it but they're a marginal party. The ANC uses it to remind Black South Africans about the struggle against Apartheid, which is a an obvious electoral tactic in a country where the opposition is littered with race-baiting and incompetent politicians who are decidedly unappealing.

For the record, white people live in communities shown below:
Img


Img


Img


This is where Black South Africans tend to live:
Img


Img


It has been 25 years since the end of Apartheid and white South Africans continue to prosper, while prospects for Black South Africans, though markedly improved, remain pretty grim. The ANC has been in control of South Africa for 25 years. I don't see a "War on Whites" here, sorry.
Logged
DavidB.
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 11,770
Netherlands


Political Matrix
E: 0.06, S: 6.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2018, 07:57:50 am »
« Edited: February 28, 2018, 11:53:44 am by DavidB. »

White farmers in South Africa are murdered at such a high rate that it is the most dangerous profession in the world. They're more likely to be killed than police officers in South Africa are. They're murdered at a rate far higher than is seen for the general population even in Honduras, Venezuela, and other countries that lead the world in violence. Unlike most murders in almost every country, the victims rarely ever know their killers. Additionally, these killings are characterized by extreme brutality including, but not limited to rape (often in front of family members forced to watch), genital mutilation, being hacked into dozens of pieces, being burned alive, babies drowned in boiling water, boiling water poured on people's faces and down their throats, etc. The level of cruelty match ISIS.

The police do nothing to protect them and the government actively opposes attempts to create militias for self defense. The Constitutional Court has ruled that the "shoot the Boer" song is "an incitement to genocide" and yet it is still sung routinely by ANC leaders. While it's true the ANC is mostly posturing and unlikely to seize all the land, the reason why they need to push this rhetoric is twofold. Reason one is that a large portion of their party is demanding it, especially younger supporters. Reason two is the Economic Freedom Fighters party, headed by former ANC Youth League leader Julius Malema, openly seek to emulate the tactics of Robert Mugabe and have made confiscating white owned property their top campaign promise. Here are some of their slogans:
Img

Img

Yet, even as this rhetoric is increasingly mainstream and black on white violent crime rates are astronomical (and defined by a level of planning and brutality far beyond robberies gone wrong), and even as Black Economic Empowerment and affirmative action block qualified whites from jobs, forcing tens of thousands into squatter camps, we're told that the extremists are whites who don't want their grandchildren to be a reviled minority in a third world country.

One last thing. It's not reverse racist. It's just racist.
Thank you.

Our government should offer them Dutch citizenship and welcome them home before it's too late. The more, the merrier.

Saakasjvili, 100k Afrikaners, a few million Dutch American calvinists after the crazy lefties take over in the US. Now I finally know the meaning of kansenparels. So beautiful Cry. Open borders please!
Purple heart Purple heart Purple heart Purple heart
Logged
Santander
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13,528
Taiwan


Political Matrix
E: 3.54, S: 4.78

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2018, 09:47:44 am »

"Economic" Freedom Fighters. "Economic" anxiety.

Now tell me with a straight face, Republicans, what "tax cuts" really mean.
Logged
Both Sides™
Kalwejt
Moderator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 53,087


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2018, 09:54:14 am »

To be fair, the Boers committed some pretty terrible crimes after 1994.
Logged
DavidB.
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 11,770
Netherlands


Political Matrix
E: 0.06, S: 6.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2018, 10:46:38 am »

So what about this? (I know it's RT and I hate it.)

Quote
The South African parliament voted on Tuesday in favor of a motion seeking to change the constitution to allow white-owned land expropriation without compensation.

The motion, which was brought by Julius Malema – the leader of the radical Marxist opposition party, the Economic Freedom Fighters – passed by a wide margin of 241 votes to 83 against.

“The time for reconciliation is over. Now is the time for justice,” Malema told the parliament. “We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land.”

Parliament has literally voted to implement racist policies against white people.
Logged
tack50
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,533
Spain


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2018, 02:38:27 pm »
« Edited: February 28, 2018, 02:45:02 pm by tack50 »

So what about this? (I know it's RT and I hate it.)

Quote
The South African parliament voted on Tuesday in favor of a motion seeking to change the constitution to allow white-owned land expropriation without compensation.

The motion, which was brought by Julius Malema – the leader of the radical Marxist opposition party, the Economic Freedom Fighters – passed by a wide margin of 241 votes to 83 against.

“The time for reconciliation is over. Now is the time for justice,” Malema told the parliament. “We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land.”

Parliament has literally voted to implement racist policies against white people.

No they haven't! Everyone knows you can't be racist against white people! ^/s

Anyways, these 2 videos probably describe what will happen if they actually go for it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOjvJAfIMSI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeGAUVlIesc

And I say this as someone who isn't exactly 100% against land expropiation. But it should follow some rules:

1) The land expropiated should be either
-Not in use (ie just left there)
-Going to be used for some public works project (say, building a railroad)

2) It should always include some sort of compensation.

3) It must not be done in an arbitrary manner. Especially not done on a racist basis.

I mean, comparing it to our "land reform" back in the 30s, even the Spanish Republic didn't dare to expropiate without compensation except to those who supported the 1932 coup.

On a sidenote, how is South Africa's land distribution? Is it concentrated on a small amount of landowners?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length
Logout

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

© Dave Leip's Atlas of U.S. Elections, LLC