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November 14, 2019, 07:44:01 pm
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  South Africa's new president wants to redistribute land from white farmers
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Author Topic: South Africa's new president wants to redistribute land from white farmers  (Read 2830 times)
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CrabCake
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« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2018, 04:53:39 pm »

It seems that the "traditional leaders" are freaked out by some of the land reform bills: the ANC seem to be musing about abolishing the various trusts held by the likes of King Goodwill Zwelithini.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2018, 09:16:03 pm »
« Edited: February 28, 2018, 09:20:53 pm by Famous Mortimer »

Why wouldn't the ANC's justification for taking property from whites also not be valid in the United States? Why would non-whites in the United States not do something similar if they were an absolute majority of the electorate?
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MB298
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« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2018, 09:39:53 pm »

Why wouldn't the ANC's justification for taking property from whites also not be valid in the United States? Why would non-whites in the United States not do something similar if they were an absolute majority of the electorate?
Because the culture, politics, and history of the U.S. are vastly different than SA. Plus, we don't have "ethnic" parties here.
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(CT) The Free North
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« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2018, 09:43:25 pm »

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasnt Mandela pushed to do the same thing but he refused because he viewed it as too devise for the new nation?
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« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2018, 09:44:24 pm »

Its also worth noting that Zimbabwe's new leadership has made at least rhetorical attempts at bringing back and restoring some land to white farmers there. Perhaps in 20-30 years if SA goes through with this, they'll be doing the same?
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Beet
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« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2018, 09:44:52 pm »

Plus, "non-white" isn't a monolithic group.

Anyway, Mandela would be rolling over in his grave.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2018, 10:19:27 pm »

Why wouldn't the ANC's justification for taking property from whites also not be valid in the United States? Why would non-whites in the United States not do something similar if they were an absolute majority of the electorate?
Because the culture, politics, and history of the U.S. are vastly different than SA. Plus, we don't have "ethnic" parties here.

The US doesn't have ethnic parties? Wow, how are you even able to use a computer?
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MB298
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« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2018, 10:20:31 pm »

Why wouldn't the ANC's justification for taking property from whites also not be valid in the United States? Why would non-whites in the United States not do something similar if they were an absolute majority of the electorate?
Because the culture, politics, and history of the U.S. are vastly different than SA. Plus, we don't have "ethnic" parties here.

The US doesn't have ethnic parties? Wow, how are you even able to use a computer?
I mean, we do, but they are so tiny they have no influence. And no, don't try to argue that the Dems are an "ethnic" party.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2018, 10:27:50 pm »

Why wouldn't the ANC's justification for taking property from whites also not be valid in the United States? Why would non-whites in the United States not do something similar if they were an absolute majority of the electorate?
Because the culture, politics, and history of the U.S. are vastly different than SA. Plus, we don't have "ethnic" parties here.

The US doesn't have ethnic parties? Wow, how are you even able to use a computer?
I mean, we do, but they are so tiny they have no influence. And no, don't try to argue that the Dems are an "ethnic" party.

Both the Democratic and Republican Parties are de facto ethnic parties. What justification do you have for declaring that position unbroachable? Other than the fact that it makes you uncomfortable?
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« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2018, 10:29:07 pm »

Why wouldn't the ANC's justification for taking property from whites also not be valid in the United States? Why would non-whites in the United States not do something similar if they were an absolute majority of the electorate?
Because the culture, politics, and history of the U.S. are vastly different than SA. Plus, we don't have "ethnic" parties here.

The US doesn't have ethnic parties? Wow, how are you even able to use a computer?
I mean, we do, but they are so tiny they have no influence. And no, don't try to argue that the Dems are an "ethnic" party.

Both the Democratic and Republican Parties are de facto ethnic parties. What justification do you have for declaring that position unbroachable? Other than the fact that it makes you uncomfortable?

Democrats win 40% of whites, far too much to be a de facto ethnic party. Or anything resembling one, actually.
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Beet
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« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2018, 10:36:21 pm »

I mean, this is getting pretty far off topic but there is a risk of American politics fracturing along ethnic lines to be sure. I warned about this back in 2016. That's why I think we should raise up White Democrats and non-white (especially African American) Republicans.
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mvd10
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« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2018, 02:06:51 am »

I mean, this is getting pretty far off topic but there is a risk of American politics fracturing along ethnic lines to be sure. I warned about this back in 2016. That's why I think we should raise up White Democrats and non-white (especially African American) Republicans.

Whites didn't really trend R in 2016 though. The Republican rise with non college-educated whites (61% to 67%) was largely negated by the loss of college-educated whites (56% to 49%).
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warandwar
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« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2018, 03:12:11 am »

Why wouldn't the ANC's justification for taking property from whites also not be valid in the United States? Why would non-whites in the United States not do something similar if they were an absolute majority of the electorate?
reparations would be a good thing tbh
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Mazda
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« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2018, 04:02:38 am »

I spent some time as a teenager on Auckland's North Shore, which is a major hub for White South Africans. They have a certain reputation over here, and certainly I've never had a positive interaction with any of the generation that emigrated in the early 90s.

In terms of their politics, they have a tendency to struggle to understand the very different racial politics of NZ, and to obviously be very socially conservative. As such, they are natural National voters but they also form a core demographic for the various Christian parties which pop up from time to time, particularly the Conservative Party in the 2014 election.

Current ACT (i.e. right-libertarian) party leader David Seymour gave the land reform issue some prominence in NZ today by refusing to congratulate our Winter Olympic medalists while the evil blacks are turning SA into another Zim etc. etc. etc.
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tack50
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« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2018, 08:52:22 am »

Why wouldn't the ANC's justification for taking property from whites also not be valid in the United States? Why would non-whites in the United States not do something similar if they were an absolute majority of the electorate?
Because the culture, politics, and history of the U.S. are vastly different than SA. Plus, we don't have "ethnic" parties here.

I thought in some states whites voted 90%+ republican and blacks 90%+ democrat?

I think that does qualify as "ethnic" parties at least at the state level.
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mvd10
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« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2018, 04:35:09 pm »

Why wouldn't the ANC's justification for taking property from whites also not be valid in the United States? Why would non-whites in the United States not do something similar if they were an absolute majority of the electorate?
Because the culture, politics, and history of the U.S. are vastly different than SA. Plus, we don't have "ethnic" parties here.

I thought in some states whites voted 90%+ republican and blacks 90%+ democrat?

I think that does qualify as "ethnic" parties at least at the state level.

Alabama 2012
White : 84-15 Romney
Black: 95-4 Obama
Missisippi
White 89-10 Romney
Black 96-4 Obama

(couldn't find numbers for Alabama or Mississippi in 2016)

Racial polarization is terrible in the Deep South. But let's not forget that there are a lot of states where whites are less than 55% R. And I just don't see what kind of coalition could unite deeply religious whites, populist whites, generic conservative whites and urban moderate/liberal whites unless there literally is a race war.
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« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2018, 06:43:40 pm »

Why wouldn't the ANC's justification for taking property from whites also not be valid in the United States? Why would non-whites in the United States not do something similar if they were an absolute majority of the electorate?
Because the culture, politics, and history of the U.S. are vastly different than SA. Plus, we don't have "ethnic" parties here.

I thought in some states whites voted 90%+ republican and blacks 90%+ democrat?

I think that does qualify as "ethnic" parties at least at the state level.
I think Mississippi is closest, in the upper 80s GOP for whites and in the 90s for blacks. However, it's common for blacks to vote 90% Democratic in nearly every part of the country. The thing is, that doesn't make it an ethnic party. Not every single black is Democratic and not every white is Republican, even in the deepest parts of the south. And while at a national level the Republican Party is mostly white, it's still not a "white" party, of course there are plenty of loyal black, Asian, and Latino Republicans, still much less than the number of minority Democrats, but still.
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PR
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« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2018, 10:43:47 pm »

Stupid, meaningless rhetoric.

But yeah, I'm in favor of reparations for barbaric, violent colonialism and decades of apartheid brutality (which seems to continue in SA today, albeit de facto). Not sure why anyone other than pearl-clutching racists would disagree. Huh
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« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2018, 06:34:52 am »

One obvious objection is that unlike the world in the 19th and early 20th centuries, most people aren't farmers. Reparations may and often do go to already-rich people.
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« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2018, 07:01:02 am »

fwiw I think the experience of BEE shows the limitations of broad, racially based Affimative Action in alleviating historic injustices - nowadays all the advatanges are hoovered up the black middle-class and ANC cronies over the genuinely impoverished. OF course, BEE represnted the right-wing alternative to the ANC's initial leftism.
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« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2018, 08:15:42 am »
« Edited: March 02, 2018, 08:21:44 am by Helsinkian »

Malema is already starting his next racist campaign: this time against South Africa's Asian minority.

Image Link

One obvious objection is that unlike the world in the 19th and early 20th centuries, most people aren't farmers. Reparations may and often do go to already-rich people.

Exactly, it's not like the poor blacks living in urban Johannesburg are suddenly going to decide to move to the countryside en masse and become small farmers. If South Africa wants to become a modern developed society then its future is not in farming.
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« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2018, 04:29:07 pm »

so in this thread I learn that

1. Whites are all persecuted about to get murdered by uncivilized blacks

2. Whites are all rich urbanites but they have farms where they oppress black people

somehow I don't think either of these are quite right.
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parochial boy
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« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2018, 05:15:25 pm »
« Edited: March 02, 2018, 06:18:29 pm by parochial boy »

so in this thread I learn that

1. Whites are all persecuted about to get murdered by uncivilized blacks

2. Whites are all rich urbanites but they have farms where they oppress black people

somehow I don't think either of these are quite right.
There are about 4.5m white South Africans. The number of "white farmers" is probably (no accurate statistics remember) in the tens of thousands, but they own 70% of land - including the most productive land as black landowners tend to be concentrated in the former homelands, which were located where they were because, well, they weren't so attractive.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2018, 06:16:24 pm »

Why wouldn't the ANC's justification for taking property from whites also not be valid in the United States? Why would non-whites in the United States not do something similar if they were an absolute majority of the electorate?
Because the culture, politics, and history of the U.S. are vastly different than SA. Plus, we don't have "ethnic" parties here.

I thought in some states whites voted 90%+ republican and blacks 90%+ democrat?

I think that does qualify as "ethnic" parties at least at the state level.
I think Mississippi is closest, in the upper 80s GOP for whites and in the 90s for blacks. However, it's common for blacks to vote 90% Democratic in nearly every part of the country. The thing is, that doesn't make it an ethnic party. Not every single black is Democratic and not every white is Republican, even in the deepest parts of the south. And while at a national level the Republican Party is mostly white, it's still not a "white" party, of course there are plenty of loyal black, Asian, and Latino Republicans, still much less than the number of minority Democrats, but still.

You are the one who said the United States was different than South Africa because South Africa had ethnic parties and the United States doesn't. Now you are saying in order to be an ethnic party, every single member of your party has to be from the same ethnic group. Well, by that standard, South Africa doesn't have ethnic parties either. There's a token number of whites who vote ANC and a token number of Blacks who vote DA. So back to my original question, why wouldn't minorities in the United States vote themselves white people's property?
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parochial boy
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« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2018, 06:32:47 pm »


Exactly, it's not like the poor blacks living in urban Johannesburg are suddenly going to decide to move to the countryside en masse and become small farmers. If South Africa wants to become a modern developed society then its future is not in farming.

Only a bear majority of black South Africans live in urban areas, probably over 40% are rural, often either farm workers or subsistence farmers in the former homelands. So land distribution is an issue for a lot of people, especially seeing as conditions in the country side are a major driver of immigration to the cities and have contributed to some of the issues contemporary urban South Africa is facing (not just the Cape Town water crisis, but also the proliferation of shack settlement which, needless to say, both ANC and the DA municipal governments have a terrible record on).
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