Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
February 20, 2019, 11:13:35 am
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Be sure to enable your "Ultimate Profile" for even more goodies on your profile page!

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  General Politics
| |-+  International General Discussion (Moderators: Gustaf, afleitch, Hash, Orphan Crippler)
| | |-+  What should Macedonia (FYROM) be called?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 Print
Poll
Question: What should the country of Macedonia (FYROM) be called?
Republic of North Macedonia   -9 (17%)
Republic of Upper Macedonia   -9 (17%)
Republic of Vardar Macedonia   -9 (17%)
Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)   -12 (22.6%)
No change to the current name   -13 (24.5%)
No name including the word "Macedonia"   -1 (1.9%)
Show Pie Chart
Total Voters: 53

Author Topic: What should Macedonia (FYROM) be called?  (Read 5615 times)
President Weatherboy1102
weatherboy1102
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,316
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.61, S: -7.83

P
View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2018, 12:10:42 pm »

East Albania
Logged

Unless we get money out of politics, the government will not truly represent us.

I Can't Believe He's Not a Democrat™

Dark green avatar to make sure people don't confuse me and Ninja now that he's independent.

Endorsements:
President: Bernie Sanders
SC-Sen: The Democrat
SC-03: The Democrat
BeastCoast
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 55


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2018, 12:28:56 pm »

West Bulgaria or Republic of Macedonia
Logged
Tintrlvr
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,193
View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2018, 12:46:49 pm »

While I agree that this is really a non-issue and its a little sad that this is something that will get thousands of people on the streets to protest on both sides, I think that non-Greeks clearly fail to understand the importance of this issue to Greece, the idea that this is merely about snowflakism is clearly mis-informed.

The Greek region of Macedonia holds a significant part of Greece's population, so when another country continually implies a claim to that area, of course Greeks will be angry, especially those who live in Macedonia. Most other countries would react in the same way that Greece has reacted, if not much worse.

Also, the idea that this has any impact of Greece's economy and that if Greece simply focused on its economy rather than complaining about Macedonia, it would be better off, is preposterous. Not to mention that Macedonia/FYROM has much bigger problems than Greece could even dream of.

I guess an American analogy would be if Mexico suddenly renamed itself to Texas?

Exactly.

No, this not true at all and is way too friendly to the Greek position.

The analogy would only apply if the entirety of Mexico, and also the US state of Texas and some parts of Guatemala and Belize were all part of a historical region known as "Texas" the name of which had been applied by the United States to its portion of that region, generating American Texas, but which also legitimately and accurately could be used to describe all of Mexico and even some parts of Guatemala and Belize, then Mexico decided to start calling itself "Texas", too, but the United States responded by insisting that only American Texas was the real Texas even though people had been using "Texas" to refer to the entire larger region that included all of Mexico as well as American Texas and parts of Guatemala and Belize for literally millennia. So it's not analogous to the "Mexico-renames-itself-Texas" hypothetical at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)

I don't think there is too much of a point going into the semantics of the exact details, its an analogy so of course it can't fit perfectly but it does fit the general point I was making.

As for what counts as Macedonia, is it just Greek Macedonia or is it FYROM and small sections of other countries too? It could very well be argued that the territory of FYROM isn't Macedonia given that the vast majority of the ancient kingdom of Macedonia's territory was in Greece and a very small part was north of the border. It was only later when Macedonia was used to refer to the entire region as Macedonia, depending on what those in charge of the region at the time wanted (ironically just like Texas).

But, I digress. It is besides the main point - the point remains the same, FYROM has a name (and other policies) that clearly imply a claim on a large amount of Greek territory, as would be the case if Mexico called itself Texas.

No more than Germany calling itself "Germany" and not "Northern Germany" implies a claim on Austria and German Switzerland.
Logged
Helsinkian
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,124
Finland
View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2018, 12:57:51 pm »

Looks like the issue is being resolved:

Logged
Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan
kataak
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,664
Vatican City State


Political Matrix
E: -4.52, S: 5.39

View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2018, 01:14:24 pm »

Until they will prepare referendum in Macedonia Syriza will lose the elections, and ND probably will scrap everything. I'm afraid they lost too much time on negotiations.
Logged



Helsinkian
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,124
Finland
View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2018, 01:21:37 pm »

This map shows East Roman (Byzantine) provinces around the time of Justinian I. FYROM roughly corresponds to "Macedonia II" so I don't know what's the big problem with calling the country "North Macedonia".

Logged
Lord Halifax
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 573
Papua New Guinea


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2018, 04:31:23 pm »

Until they will prepare referendum in Macedonia Syriza will lose the elections, and ND probably will scrap everything. I'm afraid they lost too much time on negotiations.

The referendum will be held 12-13 months before the deadline for the next Greek election. So that doesn't seem likely.
Logged
¢®🅰ß 🦀 ©@k€ 🎂
CrabCake
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15,913
Kiribati


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #57 on: June 13, 2018, 07:47:43 am »

I know Zaev is probably a crook, and Tsipras is a fool, but I feel sorry for both of them that they get saddled with such obstinate morons in their oppositions. I mean, Belgium has a province called Luxembourg, and you don't see Luxembourg throw a fit about that. Sane for the VMRO: it's laughable that those crooks who ruined Skopje are pitching a fit over an agreement that will allow the nation a way into the international community that simply requires a few symbolic concessions.
Logged

FWIW, CrabCake hates China. I think they said something like their dream was for robots to devastate China.

Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan
kataak
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,664
Vatican City State


Political Matrix
E: -4.52, S: 5.39

View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2018, 10:26:24 am »

I mean, Belgium has a province called Luxembourg, and you don't see Luxembourg throw a fit about that.


Belgium and Luxembourg are not Balkan. This is main difference.
Logged



Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan
kataak
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,664
Vatican City State


Political Matrix
E: -4.52, S: 5.39

View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2018, 01:59:02 pm »

Quote
Macedonia’s president said on Wednesday he would not sign a landmark deal reached with Greece on changing his country’s name, dashing hopes of a swift end to a diplomatic dispute that has blocked its bid to join the European Union and Nato.

Ivanov, who is backed by the nationalist opposition VMRO-DPMNE, can veto the deal. Macedonia’s centre-left government also needs a two-thirds majority to win parliamentary approval and this would require the backing of VMRO-DPMNE, which is strongly opposed to the accord.

The president also said Macedonia’s possible future membership of the EU and Nato was not sufficient excuse to sign such a “bad agreement“.




https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/13/macedonia-rejects-treaty-greece-name-row-zoran-zaev?CMP=fb_gu
Logged



pilskonzept
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 97


Political Matrix
E: -2.67, S: -2.92

View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2018, 11:15:12 am »

The Referendum Is On.

September 30. 50% turnout and 50% yes votes needed to pass.

The question is going to be -

"Are you in favor of EU and NATO membership by accepting the Agreement between the Republic of Macedonia and the Republic of Greece?"

 - which may be less than exactly neutral. But frankly, VMRO deserves the rub.
Logged
Santander
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13,213
Russian Federation


Political Matrix
E: 3.54, S: 4.78

View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2018, 06:56:56 pm »

Luxembourg is a sovereign state bordering Belgium, among other countries. A bordering province of Belgium is also called Luxembourg. The province of Luxembourg was, in fact, taken by Belgium from the country of Luxembourg. Does this imply Belgium maintains territorial ambitions to what remains of Luxembourg? Of course not, and both countries peacefully co-exist in the European Union.

These olive-eating clowns need to man up and work on getting their own countries in order rather than obsessing over brainless displays of nationalism. What the hell is there to be proud of in Greece or Macedonia in 2018, ffs?! Real strength is forgiveness and admitting you were wrong, not bullying and cheat-beating.
Logged

#resist (arrest)
True Federalist
Ernest
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 36,271
United States


View Profile WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #62 on: August 04, 2018, 08:38:07 am »

I mean, Belgium has a province called Luxembourg, and you don't see Luxembourg throw a fit about that.


Belgium and Luxembourg are not Balkan. This is main difference.

There are Luxembourgish revanchists who want to reclaim Arelerland, the traditionally Luxembourgish speaking part of Belgium Luxembourg. It only got put in Belgium initially because France wanted a road that ran through there to be removed from German influence. However, Walloonization has largely succeeded
Logged

Quote from: Ignatius of Antioch
He that possesses the word of Jesus, is truly able to bear his very silence. — Epistle to the Ephesians 3:21a
The one thing everyone can agree on is that the media is biased against them.
Velasco
andi
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,012
Western Sahara


View Profile WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2018, 09:53:17 am »

I support the annexation of Greece, Turkey, as well as all the Middle East and Persia, into Greater Macedonia. Otherwise "North Macedonia" seems to be geographically accurate.
Logged

¢®🅰ß 🦀 ©@k€ 🎂
CrabCake
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15,913
Kiribati


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2018, 09:58:27 am »

I support the annexation of Greece, Turkey, as well as all the Middle East and Persia, into Greater Macedonia. Otherwise "North Macedonia" seems to be geographically accurate.

Congratulations, you have been elected new chairman of the VMRO.
Logged

FWIW, CrabCake hates China. I think they said something like their dream was for robots to devastate China.

Velasco
andi
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,012
Western Sahara


View Profile WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2018, 10:06:06 am »

I support the annexation of Greece, Turkey, as well as all the Middle East and Persia, into Greater Macedonia. Otherwise "North Macedonia" seems to be geographically accurate.

Congratulations, you have been elected new chairman of the VMRO.

Wow, it's a great honour Cheesy

Actually the goals of the VMRO are too modest. I was thinking about the reestablishment of the Macedonian Empire under Alexander the Great.
Logged

pilskonzept
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 97


Political Matrix
E: -2.67, S: -2.92

View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2018, 11:27:07 am »

I support the annexation of Greece, Turkey, as well as all the Middle East and Persia, into Greater Macedonia. Otherwise "North Macedonia" seems to be geographically accurate.

Congratulations, you have been elected new chairman of the VMRO.

Wow, it's a great honour Cheesy

Actually the goals of the VMRO are too modest. I was thinking about the reestablishment of the Macedonian Empire under Alexander the Great.

Too many Muslims on that territory for VMRO's taste, I'm afraid.
Logged
Velasco
andi
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,012
Western Sahara


View Profile WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2018, 11:59:35 am »

I support the annexation of Greece, Turkey, as well as all the Middle East and Persia, into Greater Macedonia. Otherwise "North Macedonia" seems to be geographically accurate.

Congratulations, you have been elected new chairman of the VMRO.

Wow, it's a great honour Cheesy

Actually the goals of the VMRO are too modest. I was thinking about the reestablishment of the Macedonian Empire under Alexander the Great.

Too many Muslims on that territory for VMRO's taste, I'm afraid.

We will convert all heretics to the Orthodox Faith, eventually
Logged

pilskonzept
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 97


Political Matrix
E: -2.67, S: -2.92

View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2018, 05:10:00 am »

The referendum failed - 91% Yes on 37% turnout. While outdated voter rolls certainly played a role, turnout in ethnic Macedonian areas was much lower than usual, so the VMRO non-boycott ("we would not vote ourselves, but we will leave the decision up to you") was effective in the end.

Zaev and various EU officials are trying to spin this into a victory, and will attempt to pass the agreement in parliament alone - the referendum was technically non-binding - but this isn't going to fly.

Would make more sense for the EU to state that it fully respects the Greek borders of 1829.
Logged
EPG
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 994
View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2018, 02:48:49 pm »

Erm, the Treaty of Sèvres is a bit of an obstacle to that solution.
Logged
tack50
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,955
Spain


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2018, 02:48:33 am »

Well, now that North Macedonia seems to have failed, why not try West Bulgaria? Or South Serbia? Tongue
Logged
Meclazine
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,602
Australia
View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #71 on: October 02, 2018, 03:16:36 am »

Meclazenia.
Logged


Landslide Lyndon
px75
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18,232
Greece


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2018, 04:57:48 am »

Well, now that North Macedonia seems to have failed, why not try West Bulgaria? Or South Serbia? Tongue

If you want a serious answer, the next name they'll try is probably New Macedonia.
Logged

Bob Findley: "You're a real dyed-in-the-wool son-of-a-bitch. Anyone ever told you that?"
Steve Everett: "Just close friends and family,"

Clint Eastwood's "True Crime", 1999.
bigic 🌐
bigic
Full Member
***
Posts: 115
Political Matrix
E: 2.32, S: -7.30

View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #73 on: October 20, 2018, 05:16:58 am »

80 votes for, 39 against the start of the constitutional reform procedure (which includes the name change) out of 120 MPs.
Out of the 80 votes, 72 votes are those of the government parties (SDSM-led coalition, DUI) and Albanian opposition parties (who support the agreement, they also support the government case by case), 8 votes are rebels from the main opposition coalition led by VMRO-DPMNE.
Quote
With two-thirds of MPs backing the motion, the government can now start preparing the actual draft constitutional amendments and submit them to a repeat vote, which this time will require only a simple majority.

If MPs pass the draft amendments, they will have to be sent also for a public debate after which parliament will have to vote for the third and final time. The third vote will again require a two-thirds majority.

As things stand, even now, the government has no guarantees that the final vote would again muster the required support from enough MPs.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/xx-macedonia-parliament-votes-on-name-agreement-10-17-2018
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 05:24:13 am by bigic 🌐 »Logged

🇷🇸 Moderately pro-EU. Neoliberal globalist shill.
Landslide Lyndon
px75
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18,232
Greece


View Profile Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #74 on: January 12, 2019, 05:41:32 pm »

It's almost over.
Logged

Bob Findley: "You're a real dyed-in-the-wool son-of-a-bitch. Anyone ever told you that?"
Steve Everett: "Just close friends and family,"

Clint Eastwood's "True Crime", 1999.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines