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  Chuck Schumer: Palestinians are the reason there is no peace in the Middle East
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Author Topic: Chuck Schumer: Palestinians are the reason there is no peace in the Middle East  (Read 3151 times)
Badger
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« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2018, 01:21:30 pm »

Palestinians have been throwing rocks at Israeli's since I was a boy, and 40 years later, nothing seems to have changed.

Yep. For 40 years Israel has occupied Palestine. Coincidence?

Are you even a Republican on a single issue

Since when is acknowledging that both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist in a two-state solution a solely Democratic position, or anti Republican?

Frankly, beep boop, I'm more concerned whether or not any position I take is the just thing to support, not whether it supports a particular party or not. You demonstrate the same Independence on various issues such as stopping Obamacare. Surely you understand?

EDIT: and no, damn near every moderate Democrat I can think of firmly supports the two-state solution involving Israel withdrawing from the West Bank, nor am I the only Republican supporting such opposition. Admittedly I'm becoming more isolated as with many issues due to increasing islamophobia starting with bush and now fanned by orange head and his cast of characters. But saying that most moderate Democrats oppose palestine's right to exist? I'm calling BS on that.
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Gravelanche
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« Reply #76 on: March 08, 2018, 01:21:56 pm »

Some of the anti-Israel posters here are being ridiculous.


A statement about the Palestinian government = a statement about all Arabs? Really?

I don't take offense if someone opposes the Indian government, and my family's from there. Why would Arab-Americans (many of whom are not even from Palestine) take offense if Schumer doesn't like the Palestinian government?

and btw, the Palestinian government does not believe that Israel should exist, so I'm not sure what's wrong there, either.
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Badger
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« Reply #77 on: March 08, 2018, 01:25:21 pm »

Some of the anti-Israel posters here are being ridiculous.


A statement about the Palestinian government = a statement about all Arabs? Really?

I don't take offense if someone opposes the Indian government, and my family's from there. Why would Arab-Americans (many of whom are not even from Palestine) take offense if Schumer doesn't like the Palestinian government?

and btw, the Palestinian government does not believe that Israel should exist, so I'm not sure what's wrong there, either.

Again, doesn't fatah still support, albeit occasionally reluctantly when hostilities flare, support Israel's right to exist?
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Singletxguyforfun
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« Reply #78 on: March 08, 2018, 01:28:01 pm »

Palestinians have been throwing rocks at Israeli's since I was a boy, and 40 years later, nothing seems to have changed.

Yep. For 40 years Israel has occupied Palestine. Coincidence?

For over a thousand years, Muslims occupied what was rightfully Jewish land
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Old School Republican
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« Reply #79 on: March 08, 2018, 01:28:33 pm »
« Edited: March 08, 2018, 01:31:43 pm by Old School Republican »

Palestinians have been throwing rocks at Israeli's since I was a boy, and 40 years later, nothing seems to have changed.

Yep. For 40 years Israel has occupied Palestine. Coincidence?

Are you even a Republican on a single issue

Since when is acknowledging that both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist in a two-state solution a solely Democratic position, or anti Republican?

Frankly, beep boop, I'm more concerned whether or not any position I take is the just thing to support, not whether it supports a particular party or not. You demonstrate the same Independence on various issues such as stopping Obamacare. Surely you understand?

Yes I opposed the Repeal of Obamacare, but the Repeal of Obamacare was solely a partisan Republican position and the Affordable Care Act was originally a Republican idea in the 90s and first implemented statewide by a Republican(Republicans only opposed it cause a Dem President supported it). 

On the other hand, this issue only far left democrats are on Palestine's side over Israel and only far left Democrats believe Israel is more to blame than Palestine. Most Moderate Democrats and Republicans, on the other hand are fully on the side of Israel .

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Gravelanche
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« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2018, 01:32:32 pm »

Palestinians have been throwing rocks at Israeli's since I was a boy, and 40 years later, nothing seems to have changed.

Yep. For 40 years Israel has occupied Palestine. Coincidence?

For over a thousand years, Muslims occupied what was rightfully Jewish land

Oh please. If we're going to do this, then we also have to give back the US to the native Americans and kick the Scots out of Northern Ireland.

I think it's well established that it's not exactly fair to force people out of somewhere they've lived for generations.

The thing is, Israel has also existed for a couple generations, so it's not exactly fair to destroy their country and force people born in Israel to relocate, either.
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Torie
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« Reply #81 on: March 08, 2018, 01:47:29 pm »

It would be nice for the Palestinian Authority to prove Schumer wrong by suggesting peace terms that are reasonable along the lines of what was offered to Arafat by Ehud Barak. But sadly, I suspect Schumer is more right than wrong in his opinion.
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Joey1996
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« Reply #82 on: March 08, 2018, 01:53:31 pm »

Palestinians have been throwing rocks at Israeli's since I was a boy, and 40 years later, nothing seems to have changed.

Yep. For 40 years Israel has occupied Palestine. Coincidence?

Are you even a Republican on a single issue

Since when is acknowledging that both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist in a two-state solution a solely Democratic position, or anti Republican?

Frankly, beep boop, I'm more concerned whether or not any position I take is the just thing to support, not whether it supports a particular party or not. You demonstrate the same Independence on various issues such as stopping Obamacare. Surely you understand?

Yes I opposed the Repeal of Obamacare, but the Repeal of Obamacare was solely a partisan Republican position and the Affordable Care Act was originally a Republican idea in the 90s and first implemented statewide by a Republican(Republicans only opposed it cause a Dem President supported it). 

On the other hand, this issue only far left democrats are on Palestine's side over Israel and only far left Democrats believe Israel is more to blame than Palestine. Most Moderate Democrats and Republicans, on the other hand are fully on the side of Israel .



"Being on Israel's side" means you oppose a two-state solution?
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Joey1996
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« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2018, 01:59:21 pm »

Some of the anti-Israel posters here are being ridiculous.


A statement about the Palestinian government = a statement about all Arabs? Really?

I don't take offense if someone opposes the Indian government, and my family's from there. Why would Arab-Americans (many of whom are not even from Palestine) take offense if Schumer doesn't like the Palestinian government?

and btw, the Palestinian government does not believe that Israel should exist, so I'm not sure what's wrong there, either.

Where did you hear anything about the Plaestinian Authority? He clearly said "most Palestinians and Arabs" believe that way. Much like Trump said most Mexicans are rapists and murderers, no where did he say only the Palestinian Authority, which recognizes Israel anyway.
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Old School Republican
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« Reply #84 on: March 08, 2018, 02:33:49 pm »

Palestinians have been throwing rocks at Israeli's since I was a boy, and 40 years later, nothing seems to have changed.

Yep. For 40 years Israel has occupied Palestine. Coincidence?

Are you even a Republican on a single issue

Since when is acknowledging that both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist in a two-state solution a solely Democratic position, or anti Republican?

Frankly, beep boop, I'm more concerned whether or not any position I take is the just thing to support, not whether it supports a particular party or not. You demonstrate the same Independence on various issues such as stopping Obamacare. Surely you understand?

EDIT: and no, damn near every moderate Democrat I can think of firmly supports the two-state solution involving Israel withdrawing from the West Bank, nor am I the only Republican supporting such opposition. Admittedly I'm becoming more isolated as with many issues due to increasing islamophobia starting with bush and now fanned by orange head and his cast of characters. But saying that most moderate Democrats oppose palestine's right to exist? I'm calling BS on that.


It is that comment I'm referring too, not the support of the two-state solution.
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ProgressiveCanadian
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« Reply #85 on: March 08, 2018, 03:32:10 pm »

Israel has put their foot down on Palestines for the past half century. Pretty sure the right-wingers in government are the ones creating the division and avoiding peace.
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Parrotguy
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« Reply #86 on: March 08, 2018, 03:41:00 pm »

Israel has put their foot down on Palestines for the past half century. Pretty sure the right-wingers in government are the ones creating the division and avoiding peace.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehud_Olmert

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehud_Barak

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Rabin

Etc. Yes, both sides need to work harder to achieve peace, but the fact is that for decades, the Palestinians have been doing their best to obstruct peace- did you know that after the Oslo Accords were signed, the acts of terrorism only increased? All of this terrorism and hate-mongering by the Palestinians radicalized the Israeli population and turned it from the population that screamed "peace" and elected Rabin by landslide margin to the population that gets terrified when Bibi says that the Arabs are turning out to vote and then reelect him with 30 seats despite actually hating him. The Palestinians can very well blame themselves for this radicalization, though I recognize that both sides share some blame. We're not the ones teaching blatant antisemitism and inciting hate against Jews and Israel in our state-funded education system, though.
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« Reply #87 on: March 08, 2018, 05:36:44 pm »

It would be nice for the Palestinian Authority to prove Schumer wrong by suggesting peace terms that are reasonable along the lines of what was offered to Arafat by Ehud Barak. But sadly, I suspect Schumer is more right than wrong in his opinion.
That is ridiculous. A number of Israeli negotiators in the negotiations there had outright admitted that the offer was unfair after the fact, this should absolutely not be a baseline position.
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Fuzzy Bear
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« Reply #88 on: March 08, 2018, 08:11:17 pm »

Sen. Schumer is simply acknowledging the fact that Jews have a deep historical tie, thousands of years old, to the land of Israel. The Palestinian Authority routinely denies Israel's right to exist, and thus don't allow for any serious peace agreement to be reached. I don't defend Chuck Schumer on many things, but he is not wrong in this case.

This.

The Palestinians' tactics is ti incrementally weaken Israel because, at heart, they wish to drive the Jewish State into the sea.

You cannot hope to have a lasting peace with an enemy who, at their core, wishes your total destruction.  The demands to give up "occupied territories" aren't demands that, if met, will lead to peace.  They are demands that are sought to improve the strategic position of Israel's enemies.  Period.

Have the Palestinians ever said, unequivocally, that Israel has the right to exist within their 1967 borders?  I haven't heard that yet. 

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True Federalist
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« Reply #89 on: March 08, 2018, 08:40:56 pm »

their hard and thankless work in developing it properly

This is the Zionist claim that I have the hardest time swallowing for the simple reason it is the same bunk every other group of European colonialists used to justify their colonies.  The fact that Zionism  happened to be an European colonialist ideology centered around a group of European colonialists who could trace their ancestors to having once lived in the area they proposed to colonize doesn't justify it in my opinion.

[...]

I understand, but there's a very clear difference. The European colonialists (save for Americans and perhaps some other unique cases, which are also different in many ways) dumped money and modern armies on the colonies and forced the natives to work for them, while Jewish settlers did the hard work themselves, while facing opposition from both British authorities (who also admittedly had a hand in developing the place, but in different ways) and Arabic locals.

[...]

You're still operating from the colonialist presumptions that:
1) Only outsiders could have developed the area, and
2) Development is always intrinsically good.
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Meclazine
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« Reply #90 on: March 09, 2018, 12:33:42 am »
« Edited: March 09, 2018, 04:40:17 am by Meclazine »

Sen. Schumer is simply acknowledging the fact that Jews have a deep historical tie, thousands of years old, to the land of Israel. The Palestinian Authority routinely denies Israel's right to exist, and thus don't allow for any serious peace agreement to be reached. I don't defend Chuck Schumer on many things, but he is not wrong in this case.

The Palestinians' tactics is ti incrementally weaken Israel because, at heart, they wish to drive the Jewish State into the sea.

You cannot hope to have a lasting peace with an enemy who, at their core, wishes your total destruction.

That to me has always meant nuclear destruction. With the help of Iran, the Palestinians want Israel off the face of the Earth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsB83fAtNQE

When comparing Israeli's and Palestinians, one party has nuclear weapons and does not want to use them whilst the other is seeking nuclear weapons and will use them on the first day they become available.

Ultimately, the only logical conclusion is Israel will defend itself by whatever means necessary to avoid this scenario.
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Parrotguy
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« Reply #91 on: March 09, 2018, 03:34:31 am »

their hard and thankless work in developing it properly

This is the Zionist claim that I have the hardest time swallowing for the simple reason it is the same bunk every other group of European colonialists used to justify their colonies.  The fact that Zionism  happened to be an European colonialist ideology centered around a group of European colonialists who could trace their ancestors to having once lived in the area they proposed to colonize doesn't justify it in my opinion.

[...]

I understand, but there's a very clear difference. The European colonialists (save for Americans and perhaps some other unique cases, which are also different in many ways) dumped money and modern armies on the colonies and forced the natives to work for them, while Jewish settlers did the hard work themselves, while facing opposition from both British authorities (who also admittedly had a hand in developing the place, but in different ways) and Arabic locals.

[...]

You're still operating from the colonialist presumptions that:
1) Only outsiders could have developed the area, and
2) Development is always intrinsically good.

Am I saying only Jews (not outsiders- there have always been at least some Jews in Israel) could've brought prosperity to this land? No. Am I saying they're the only ones who did? Yeah. They've worked hard to completely change the face of this land and make it a much better place to live.
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True Federalist
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« Reply #92 on: March 09, 2018, 06:09:57 am »

their hard and thankless work in developing it properly

This is the Zionist claim that I have the hardest time swallowing for the simple reason it is the same bunk every other group of European colonialists used to justify their colonies.  The fact that Zionism  happened to be an European colonialist ideology centered around a group of European colonialists who could trace their ancestors to having once lived in the area they proposed to colonize doesn't justify it in my opinion.

[...]

I understand, but there's a very clear difference. The European colonialists (save for Americans and perhaps some other unique cases, which are also different in many ways) dumped money and modern armies on the colonies and forced the natives to work for them, while Jewish settlers did the hard work themselves, while facing opposition from both British authorities (who also admittedly had a hand in developing the place, but in different ways) and Arabic locals.

[...]

You're still operating from the colonialist presumptions that:
1) Only outsiders could have developed the area, and
2) Development is always intrinsically good.

Am I saying only Jews (not outsiders- there have always been at least some Jews in Israel) could've brought prosperity to this land? No. Am I saying they're the only ones who did? Yeah. They've worked hard to completely change the face of this land and make it a much better place to live.

Considering how the water resources of the area are being unsustainably used, I'd reserve judgment on whether it's been made better, even if one believes that man is greater than nature.

Also, since Jews were there even before the Mandate, does that not make Ottoman misgovernance at minimum an equal if not superior explanation for the changes since? Democracy and the rule of law do much to explain what's happened in the area without recourse to any explanations depending upon ethnicity. The West Bank hasn't known those under either Jordanian or Israeli occupation, tho the Jordanian occupation was far less harsh and arbitrary since the occupiers were trying to integrate the population, not exclude it.
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dead0man
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« Reply #93 on: March 09, 2018, 08:13:28 am »

Jordan once tried to integrate the Palestinians?  How'd that go?
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Torie
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« Reply #94 on: March 09, 2018, 08:42:18 am »

It would be nice for the Palestinian Authority to prove Schumer wrong by suggesting peace terms that are reasonable along the lines of what was offered to Arafat by Ehud Barak. But sadly, I suspect Schumer is more right than wrong in his opinion.
That is ridiculous. A number of Israeli negotiators in the negotiations there had outright admitted that the offer was unfair after the fact, this should absolutely not be a baseline position.

Do you have a link to something that states that a "number of Israeli negotiators" thought the offer "unfair?" I don't agree with such alleged negotiators, even if your claim is true, but I would be interested in reading what they had to say, and why they thought the offer unfair.
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Bismarck
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« Reply #95 on: March 09, 2018, 12:14:46 pm »

If you’re an Arab Muslim in Israel you can prosper. If you’re a Jewish person living in Palestinian territory you may literally be killed. How on earth could anybody support Palestine over Israel?
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True Federalist
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« Reply #96 on: March 09, 2018, 08:05:14 pm »

Jordan once tried to integrate the Palestinians?  How'd that go?

Not well since the Hashemite Kings aren't really from the area but further south.  But they weren't treated any worse than the peasants on the East Bank.
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Badger
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« Reply #97 on: March 10, 2018, 02:06:28 am »

Palestinians have been throwing rocks at Israeli's since I was a boy, and 40 years later, nothing seems to have changed.

Yep. For 40 years Israel has occupied Palestine. Coincidence?

Are you even a Republican on a single issue

Since when is acknowledging that both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist in a two-state solution a solely Democratic position, or anti Republican?

Frankly, beep boop, I'm more concerned whether or not any position I take is the just thing to support, not whether it supports a particular party or not. You demonstrate the same Independence on various issues such as stopping Obamacare. Surely you understand?

EDIT: and no, damn near every moderate Democrat I can think of firmly supports the two-state solution involving Israel withdrawing from the West Bank, nor am I the only Republican supporting such opposition. Admittedly I'm becoming more isolated as with many issues due to increasing islamophobia starting with bush and now fanned by orange head and his cast of characters. But saying that most moderate Democrats oppose palestine's right to exist? I'm calling BS on that.


It is that comment I'm referring too, not the support of the two-state solution.

The two are by definition inclusive of one another. What the hell is your position anyway? You are absolutely chasing your tail on this.
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Old School Republican
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« Reply #98 on: March 10, 2018, 07:03:21 pm »

Palestinians have been throwing rocks at Israeli's since I was a boy, and 40 years later, nothing seems to have changed.

Yep. For 40 years Israel has occupied Palestine. Coincidence?

Are you even a Republican on a single issue

Since when is acknowledging that both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist in a two-state solution a solely Democratic position, or anti Republican?

Frankly, beep boop, I'm more concerned whether or not any position I take is the just thing to support, not whether it supports a particular party or not. You demonstrate the same Independence on various issues such as stopping Obamacare. Surely you understand?

EDIT: and no, damn near every moderate Democrat I can think of firmly supports the two-state solution involving Israel withdrawing from the West Bank, nor am I the only Republican supporting such opposition. Admittedly I'm becoming more isolated as with many issues due to increasing islamophobia starting with bush and now fanned by orange head and his cast of characters. But saying that most moderate Democrats oppose palestine's right to exist? I'm calling BS on that.


It is that comment I'm referring too, not the support of the two-state solution.

The two are by definition inclusive of one another. What the hell is your position anyway? You are absolutely chasing your tail on this.

Palestine started multiple wars against Israel and a punishment for losing wars they started was Israel got to was they got to expand their borders. If Palestine never wanted Israel to occupy that land they should never have started wars against them in the first place. That land is Israel's and rightfully so.


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Parrotguy
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« Reply #99 on: March 10, 2018, 07:24:39 pm »

Palestinians have been throwing rocks at Israeli's since I was a boy, and 40 years later, nothing seems to have changed.

Yep. For 40 years Israel has occupied Palestine. Coincidence?

Are you even a Republican on a single issue

Since when is acknowledging that both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist in a two-state solution a solely Democratic position, or anti Republican?

Frankly, beep boop, I'm more concerned whether or not any position I take is the just thing to support, not whether it supports a particular party or not. You demonstrate the same Independence on various issues such as stopping Obamacare. Surely you understand?

EDIT: and no, damn near every moderate Democrat I can think of firmly supports the two-state solution involving Israel withdrawing from the West Bank, nor am I the only Republican supporting such opposition. Admittedly I'm becoming more isolated as with many issues due to increasing islamophobia starting with bush and now fanned by orange head and his cast of characters. But saying that most moderate Democrats oppose palestine's right to exist? I'm calling BS on that.


It is that comment I'm referring too, not the support of the two-state solution.

The two are by definition inclusive of one another. What the hell is your position anyway? You are absolutely chasing your tail on this.

Palestine started multiple wars against Israel and a punishment for losing wars they started was Israel got to was they got to expand their borders. If Palestine never wanted Israel to occupy that land they should never have started wars against them in the first place. That land is Israel's and rightfully so.

Palestine didn't start any of the wars in Isrseli history because Palestine never properly existed as a state. Though, it is true that the Palestinian leadership in 1948 pushed very hard against the UN's 2 state resolution, and along with the other Arabic neighbours caused what would become Israel's victorious independence war.
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