SB 2018-167: Reforming Presidential Pardons Amendment (Passed)

[Lumine]

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Sponsor: Senator Lumine.

[Lumine]

Something which has concerned me ever since the Civil Conflict and the near anarchy back in 2014 is that the Presidential pardon was too open to abuse from a less morally inclined President. Thankfully, the Fourth Constitution took a step to correct that, but I feel there's still room for improvement here to ensure a pardon (which by itself is a questionable form of meddling in judicial affairs by the Executive) is something only used in a truly necessary context.

Rather than outright elimination (which I toyed with, but may not be necessarily popular), I've decided to curtail the potential for abuse in two different ways: First, by including the Senate on the matter, subjecting pardons to a majority vote by this august body before they take effect. The rescind power of Congress is retained as well, meaning every pardon will necessarily have a more consensual nature that requires collaboration between the Executive and the Legislative. And second, by outright ending the open question of whether a President can issue a pardon for himself. We can argue a Congress would probably rescind a self-pardon, but I'd rather not leave it to chance and end this form of abuse right away.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Look at you, appreciating the most statesmen like and institutional nature of the Senate by giving them dibs on ratifying pardons. A bicameralist shall be borne of thee yet.

[Lumine]

Look at you, appreciating the most statesmen like and institutional nature of the Senate by giving them dibs on ratifying pardons. A bicameralist shall be borne of thee yet.

Well... I never did say the Senate had to go, did I?

(but we'll get to that debate later)

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

This seems like a good idea to add some extra checks and balances in order to prevent abuse of the rule of law by an unethical president. I'll vote for this bill as is.

[Pericles]

I've already endorsed this policy and confirm I'll vote for this great bill as is.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

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If the sponsor does not mind my asking, why is the bolded text an insufficient precaution against executive abuse of the pardon?

Personally, and with greatest respect to Lumine, I think this is a terrible idea—far preferable to abolish the pardon outright than to subject it to legislative confirmation (I'm not at all comfortable with the legislature deciding who should be excused for breaking their laws)—but I have no illusions as to my ability to persuade the Senate on that point.

[#TheShadowyAbyss]

I agree this is a good idea, I don't think one person should have sole power to pardon anyone, it should be by the majority of the people's elected representatives, I will support this.

[Lumine]

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If the sponsor does not mind my asking, why is the bolded text an insufficient precaution against executive abuse of the pardon?

Personally, and with greatest respect to Lumine, I think this is a terrible idea—far preferable to abolish the pardon outright than to subject it to legislative confirmation (I'm not at all comfortable with the legislature deciding who should be excused for breaking their laws)—but I have no illusions as to my ability to persuade the Senate on that point.

I did toy with the idea of ending the pardon power, as I've never liked it all. Indeed, I find unnecessary, questionable meddling of the Executive on Judicial matters. However, pardons may also serve a purpose in rather extraordinary situations, which is why I settled on leaving but increasing regulation so both the President and Congress have a role in the matter (a larger role in the case of the Senate, which already has oversight powers over the Executive on matters such as confirmations).

Myself I'm not sold on the 2/3 vote for rescinding a pardon, at it would take for uphold a questionable (and deeply politically motivated) pardon would be for a minority of Congress to block an attempt to rescind, and a President with enough pull among his Congressional delegation might find it possible to pardon himself successfully in a highly partisan environment. The idea doesn't seem all that plausible right now, but then again, with the past crisis in 2014-2015 I'd very much prefer to cover hypothetical ground to be safe.

[Lumine]

I motion for a final vote, 24 hours for objections.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

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If the sponsor does not mind my asking, why is the bolded text an insufficient precaution against executive abuse of the pardon?

Personally, and with greatest respect to Lumine, I think this is a terrible idea—far preferable to abolish the pardon outright than to subject it to legislative confirmation (I'm not at all comfortable with the legislature deciding who should be excused for breaking their laws)—but I have no illusions as to my ability to persuade the Senate on that point.

I did toy with the idea of ending the pardon power, as I've never liked it all. Indeed, I find unnecessary, questionable meddling of the Executive on Judicial matters. However, pardons may also serve a purpose in rather extraordinary situations, which is why I settled on leaving but increasing regulation so both the President and Congress have a role in the matter (a larger role in the case of the Senate, which already has oversight powers over the Executive on matters such as confirmations).

Myself I'm not sold on the 2/3 vote for rescinding a pardon, at it would take for uphold a questionable (and deeply politically motivated) pardon would be for a minority of Congress to block an attempt to rescind, and a President with enough pull among his Congressional delegation might find it possible to pardon himself successfully in a highly partisan environment. The idea doesn't seem all that plausible right now, but then again, with the past crisis in 2014-2015 I'd very much prefer to cover hypothetical ground to be safe.

I suppose I see your argument, even if I disagree with your conclusions (in my time in Atlasia, at least, the threat of an "imperial presidency" has not been the main threat to the system of checks and balances so much as the legislature usurping executive powers). I'm not sure how bringing Congress into this solves anything, though; if we're so concerned with the executive meddling in judicial affairs, surely the solution is not to add Congress to the list of meddlers?

[Lumine]

I suppose I see your argument, even if I disagree with your conclusions (in my time in Atlasia, at least, the threat of an "imperial presidency" has not been the main threat to the system of checks and balances so much as the legislature usurping executive powers). I'm not sure how bringing Congress into this solves anything, though; if we're so concerned with the executive meddling in judicial affairs, surely the solution is not to add Congress to the list of meddlers?

I think most of my concerns really come from the 2014 crisis (which I think was before your time), in which we faced a lot of trouble and chaos during a particularly incompetent administration, and then we had a vaccum of power with a Vice-President taking over and then being banned as a troll (and we've had a troll President before too). Given those precedents the potential for abuse exists, and I'd really like to avoid some avenues of abuse to be exploited.

As to why bringing Congress in, my reasoning is that if we are to keep this pardon power, then it would make more sense to add further oversight to the whole matter, and turn it into more of a collaborational effort that in the end will include more branches of government (and just more responsibilities) than depending on a single individual.

[Lumine]

With no objections, we move to a final vote. Senators, please vote AYE, NAY, or ABSTAIN:

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[Lumine]

Aye.

[_]

Aye

[Pericles]

Aye.

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

Abstain
I honestly see both sides of this issue, but I do think that the Congress' power to rescind a pardon is fine enough. However, while Atlasia is a totally different place today than it was in 2014, I do think that the culture of Atlasia can once again toxify itself to the point that a measure like this would be needed to prevent abuses of power.

[Lumine]

This Amendment has enough votes to pass. Senators have 24 hours to change their votes.

[Lumine]

With 3 votes in favor this Amendment passes the Atlasian Senate:

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People's Regional Senate:
Passed 3-0-1 in the Atlasian Senate assembled

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