It is time for the Left to Take Back Up the Mantle of Liberty.

[Beet]

In the news this week were two items. The president, Donald Trump, said that we should take away guns without due process. The president of China, Xi Jinping, announced he wants to rule indefinitely. Both of these trends are part of the rising resurgence of authoritarianism. Long in the making, world Freedom House scores peaked in 2005 and have been falling. The share of people who say it is essential to live in a democracy has dropped precipitously in the West since the 1930s. The United States, the supposed beacon of freedom, has seen one shocking blow after another to its prestige since the turn of the century. Not only the post Cold War order, or the post World War II order, but the whole of liberal democracy is under threat. If only it could have been remembered in the triumphalism of 1989, those famous words of Napoleon Bonaparte - "the greatest danger occurs in the moment of victory."

Liberty, as a value - individual freedom from government tyranny, constrained by things such as the rule of law, and freedom of speech, has never preserved without at least one energetic political faction advocating for it. Its roots trace back to the Magna Charta, but it began to have a strong impact on English government at the time of the English Civil War, when William Lenthall, Speaker of the House of Commons, told King Charles I, "I have neither eyes to see nor tongue to speak in this place but as the House is pleased to direct me, whose servant I am here."

The First Period

By the time of the Glorious Revolution, John Locke published his Treatise of Government, and from then on, for the next 200 years, the stunning success of Anglo civilization rocketed Classical Liberalism to the most prestigious place in the world. After the pamphlet wars of the 1790s, there was no serious debate in the English speaking world anymore over whether authoritarianism or some form of representative democracy was the best form of government, only the extent of the franchise and the organization of the representative bodies. During this Period, the Bourgeoisie, or Middle Class, Struggled Against the Landed Aristocracy.

The Second Period

From the 1890s, the landed aristocracy was defeated by the Middle Class and the Working Class arose to challenge Classical Liberalism. Hence, for the next century - with the noted aberration of fascism - the cause of Liberty was safeguarded by the Right, whereas the Left was seduced by Soviet Communism. During this Period, the Working Class Struggled Against the Bourgeoisie, or Middle Class.

The Third Period (We Are Entering Now)

Here we arise at the third period, signalled by the rise of Donald Trump and the Alt Right. The Second Period has ended in a stalemate with both total socialism (1991) and total capitalism (2008) discredited. Its Last Hurrah attempt to spread "democracy" by becoming neoconservative warmongers having turned into a disaster, the Right has thus decided to abandon Liberty as a value and turn to authoritarianism. Thus if the Left does not take up the mantle of Liberty, for the first time in 350 years no major Western faction will hold up the cause of Liberty. This is why Liberty has been in decline for the past 15 or 20 years. A decline which is accelerating.

The Nature of Liberty and why the Left Should Take It Up

It could be that the time of liberal democracy is simply up. However, the Left should take up Liberty as a political doctrine because it is by nature Leftist, if one considers that in every area the Left is concerned with egalitarianism - in Economics, the Left advocates for the poor, and in Social issues, it is the same. In Politics, authoritarianism gives the Powerful control over the Powerless, the Government control over Individuals, with no recourse for the latter. The Concentration of political power no less than the concentration of economic or social power is the essence of Inequality. Hence why you see Democrats insisting on people's right to vote and Republicans trying to restrict the franchise. All of the basic elements of political classical liberalism - democracy, the rule of law, freedom of speech, due process, serve to spread out political power and ensure the rights of those who otherwise would have none. Thus, Political Liberty fits well within the Left's existing framework and should be taken up by the Left now that the Right has abandoned it.

[CatoMinor]

The left becoming champions of liberty again would be a tall order considering it's next generation of leaders will be largely of the Tumblr/SJW wing of the left, which isn't exactly friendly towards free speech these days.

Then there is the whole issue of "liberty" being larger than the simplistic notion of a left/right scale.

[dead0man]

That would be awesome.

[MarkD]

Yeah, yeah; the left want to have freedom from the laws made by the right and the right want freedom from the laws made by the left. I've heard this song and dance before.

[Lechasseur]

The left becoming champions of liberty again would be a tall order considering it's next generation of leaders will be largely of the Tumblr/SJW wing of the left, which isn't exactly friendly towards free speech these days.

Then there is the whole issue of "liberty" being larger than the simplistic notion of a left/right scale.

This

[America's Sweetheart ❤/𝕿𝖍𝖊 𝕭𝖔𝖔𝖙𝖞 𝖂𝖆𝖗𝖗𝖎𝖔𝖗]

The left becoming champions of liberty again would be a tall order considering it's next generation of leaders will be largely of the Tumblr/SJW wing of the left, which isn't exactly friendly towards free speech these days.

Then there is the whole issue of "liberty" being larger than the simplistic notion of a left/right scale.

The alt-right isn't exactly friendly towards muh freeze peach either.

[dead0man]

The left becoming champions of liberty again would be a tall order considering it's next generation of leaders will be largely of the Tumblr/SJW wing of the left, which isn't exactly friendly towards free speech these days.

Then there is the whole issue of "liberty" being larger than the simplistic notion of a left/right scale.

The alt-right isn't exactly friendly towards muh freeze peach either.

oh, well then, I guess that makes it ok!  Problem solved everybody.

[America's Sweetheart ❤/𝕿𝖍𝖊 𝕭𝖔𝖔𝖙𝖞 𝖂𝖆𝖗𝖗𝖎𝖔𝖗]

The left becoming champions of liberty again would be a tall order considering it's next generation of leaders will be largely of the Tumblr/SJW wing of the left, which isn't exactly friendly towards free speech these days.

Then there is the whole issue of "liberty" being larger than the simplistic notion of a left/right scale.

The alt-right isn't exactly friendly towards muh freeze peach either.

oh, well then, I guess that makes it ok!  Problem solved everybody.

No, I'm not saying that at all.  I'm a free speech absolutist, what I'm saying is that both sides do it.

[CatoMinor]

The left becoming champions of liberty again would be a tall order considering it's next generation of leaders will be largely of the Tumblr/SJW wing of the left, which isn't exactly friendly towards free speech these days.

Then there is the whole issue of "liberty" being larger than the simplistic notion of a left/right scale.

The alt-right isn't exactly friendly towards muh freeze peach either.

Well the second I see Chairmansanchez making a post calling for the Alt-right to be the new champions of Liberty I will be just as quick to call them out on their hypocracy as well.

[dead0man]

ya know what this thread DOESN'T have?  Left leaning people agreeing with Beet.


If you really like liberty, you left the left (heehee) a long time ago if you ever joined them in the first place.  That's my theory at least.  I'd assume most people on the left self identify that way because they are nice people and want to help the downtrodden.  Ya know, just like the right.  They both have ideas on how to do that, and this is where the problems come in, they both involve using the govt to make people do what they think is best.  I wish they'd all eff off.  Don't tell me who I can put my penis in, don't tell me what plant I can ingest and don't make me spend $4000 and 6 months in a class just to cut a little hair for extra money.

You want Americans to be happy?  Get the govt out of our ass.

[Antonio the Sixth]

"Liberty" is overrated, and definitely not what the world needs right now.

[parochial boy]

Different conceptions of what liberty means.

For the left it means not having your life dictated to you as a result of your socioeconomic circumstances.

For the right it's the really important stuff like being able to buy a slightly bigger coke or to call someone a "n****er" without getting in trouble

[mvd10]

"Liberty" is overrated, and definitely not what the world needs right now.

But hey, we can always go to Cuba. We don't need liberty when we have healthcare after all. Who cares when you get imprisoned for your opinion .

[DC Al Fine]

Different conceptions of what liberty means.

For the left it means not having your life dictated to you as a result of your socioeconomic circumstances.

For the right it's the really important stuff like being able to buy a slightly bigger coke or to call someone a "n****er" without getting in trouble

When you're done sodomizing that strawman, perhaps you can try engaging an actual argument.

[parochial boy]

Different conceptions of what liberty means.

For the left it means not having your life dictated to you as a result of your socioeconomic circumstances.

For the right it's the really important stuff like being able to buy a slightly bigger coke or to call someone a "n****er" without getting in trouble

When you're done sodomizing that strawman, perhaps you can try engaging an actual argument.

It's hyperbole, but it's not a strawman. There's no real use in denying the fact that there are different conceptions of what exactly constitutes freedom; just the same as what constitutes liberalism, conservatism, democracy or just about any political concept is up for debate.

The trouble with the argument being presented here is that is presents "liberty" from a wholly biased viewpoint that does not reflect the ways in which people of the left, radical or not, view liberty.

As a simplistic example, a anarchist may consider that private property is by its nature authoritarian, as it inherently restricts other people's liberty of access to the property. Obviously, most people would vehemently disagree, but there isn't any ordained "nature" that required this to be the case, as fundamentally liberty is only ever what social convention deems it to be.

Added to this, a simplistic understand of liberty as "freedom from any constraint" is obviously simplistic, given that my freedom to do "X" could impinge on your freedom to do "Y" (me taking an unpaid internship may cost someone who does not have the resources to find that particular luxury, for instance).

So yes, there are different conceptions of what constitutes "liberty", and the right tend to view liberty through the framework of "removing constraints" whereas the left tend to see it through the framework of "enabling opportunity".

And the point still stands, that a lot of the decrying of attacks on liberty that we see are quite trivial, and are often more complex from that perspective than people would like to make out - why is the SJW wanting to no platform Richard Spencer inherently more "authoritarian" than someone whose ideology demands that someone should live their entire life in the country their parents were born in?

Happy?

[dead0man]

Nobody's ideology demands a person stay in the country their parents were born in.


edit-I take that back.  There have some authoritarian hell holes that have had to build walls to keep people in, I guess they would fit your ideology.  I don't think anybody here ascribes to them though.

[DC Al Fine]

That's not the point. Everyone gets that there are different conceptions of liberty, but your rhetoric crossed the border of hyperbole into the realm of strawmen and demagoguery. You say our cause is about racial bigotry and then want to walk it back to an intellectual discussion when called out. Good grief.

"The rights view of sex is about protecting the family while the left's is just about letting creeps shower with your teenage daughter."

"Hey man it's just hyperbole. Different groups have very different ideas of sexuality."

See how that works.

[parochial boy]

That's not the point. Everyone gets that there are different conceptions of liberty, but your rhetoric crossed the border of hyperbole into the realm of strawmen and demagoguery. You say our cause is about racial bigotry and then want to walk it back to an intellectual discussion when called out. Good grief.

"The rights view of sex is about protecting the family while the left's is just about letting creeps shower with your teenage daughter."

"Hey man it's just hyperbole. Different groups have very different ideas of sexuality."

See how that works.

I was being facetious by picking two deliberately bad examples of what are simplistically held up as examples of "liberty" being under threat, as I was fed up with the argument that the left doesn't care about liberty because of the size of coke cups or whatever.

I apologise if you thought I was trying to make out that the right's cause was racial bigotry (but you've got to admit that "I don't agree with racism, but he should have the liberty to be racist" is a widespread argument used by people who are, usually, right wing) because that wasn't my intention - but when I gave an "intellectual" explanation of the initial point I was making (which evidently isn't something that a lot of people on here actually understand), you chose to respond with more righteous indignation rather than actually engage with it.

[Sestak]

Beet is absolutely right here.

Make the left liberal again.

[GlobeSoc]

Beet is absolutely right here.

Make the left liberal again.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Liberalism has outlived its usefulness as a political ideology somewhere around 1918. Going back to it is the last thing the left needs right now.

[dead0man]

Tony:all illiberal all the time

I feel bad for Beet, Seestak and the Walrus (IN THE MORNING!.....great morning radio show.....Seestak is alright, but Walrus is kind of a dick) because the authoritarians have taken over the left.  It's weird because most lefties I know in real life claim to be of the liberal variety too.  Sure, they like telling people what to do and don't mind using the govt to do it, but they're still liberal when it's convenient.

[Sirius_]

Beet is absolutely right here.

Make the left liberal again.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The left becoming champions of liberty again would be a tall order considering it's next generation of leaders will be largely of the Tumblr/SJW wing of the left, which isn't exactly friendly towards free speech these days.

Then there is the whole issue of "liberty" being larger than the simplistic notion of a left/right scale.

LOL no. Those weirdos on Tumblr aren't capable of leading an anime club, much less political movements. That's why they spend their time venting all their weird sh!t on Tumblr.

[CatoMinor]

The left becoming champions of liberty again would be a tall order considering it's next generation of leaders will be largely of the Tumblr/SJW wing of the left, which isn't exactly friendly towards free speech these days.

Then there is the whole issue of "liberty" being larger than the simplistic notion of a left/right scale.

LOL no. Those weirdos on Tumblr aren't capable of leading an anime club, much less political movements. That's why they spend their time venting all their weird sh!t on Tumblr.

You laugh but I see more and more of this group in the college age Democrats. Ideally they'll just be a repeat of the 60's "New Left" and just eat themselves trying to out True-Left themselves.