Winnie Mandela, anti-apartheid activist and wife to Nelson Mandela dead at 81

[Devout Centrist]

A brutal system leads to brutal behaviour; not an excuse, but an acknowledgement that 1980s South Africa was in many ways in a state of near collapse - something which people would do well to remember when bemoaning the very many issues the country is facing today.

An infinitely larger number of black people died because of actions by the Umkhonto we Sizwe terrorists than by actions by the actual apartheid government. A pretty damning conclusion, and if 1980s South Africa was truly in a state of near collapse, this was one of the main reasons for it.

Do you have proof?

Not now, but will try to provide it for you later (I have read about this, but don't have the book here right now).

On the face of it, this is a pretty outrageous claim. Even if you inflate the number of police informants killed by MK, include killings by the Inkatha Freedom Party (which is suspect because the Apartheid government helped fund their operations in order to undercut the ANC), and conclude that hundreds were killed by MK land mines, the death toll would be several hundred people more than the official (read: government) death toll for the Sharpeville massacre, the Soweto uprising, and the Bisho massacre.

This figure would exclude other demonstrators killed by SAP, people killed in the counter insurgency in Namibia and neighboring countries, people executed by the South African government, people who died in custody from their injuries, and of course, the nebulous issue of the IFP.

Criticize MK’s actions all you like, but please do so in an intellectually honest way.

[EPG]

A brutal system leads to brutal behaviour; not an excuse, but an acknowledgement that 1980s South Africa was in many ways in a state of near collapse - something which people would do well to remember when bemoaning the very many issues the country is facing today.

An infinitely larger number of black people died because of actions by the Umkhonto we Sizwe terrorists than by actions by the actual apartheid government. A pretty damning conclusion, and if 1980s South Africa was truly in a state of near collapse, this was one of the main reasons for it.

Infinitely would imply the apartheid government killed no black people. It would be, in fact, more pro-black than America under Obama.

Special gift for you.

Just to make it clear for the record, you are happy to use positive hyperbole about the merits of apartheid.

[NewYorkExpress]

A bit late...but RIP

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

A brutal system leads to brutal behaviour; not an excuse, but an acknowledgement that 1980s South Africa was in many ways in a state of near collapse - something which people would do well to remember when bemoaning the very many issues the country is facing today.

An infinitely larger number of black people died because of actions by the Umkhonto we Sizwe terrorists than by actions by the actual apartheid government. A pretty damning conclusion, and if 1980s South Africa was truly in a state of near collapse, this was one of the main reasons for it.

Death tolls often aren't a great measure of brutality - there's a brutality inherent in having your life constrained through the use of state power, which always implies the threat of violence. If those targeted by this power are left unharmed by the barrel of a gun, it's only because they've complied, it's not due to the benevolence of the state.

Whenever the state does this to a large group of people and does not offer them a legitimate mechanism with which to voice their discontent, this leads to violence. It doesn't only lead to violence against state actors but also often encourages communalist violence, nihilistic behavior etc.