Is there a double standard between criticizing Evangelicals and other religions?
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  Is there a double standard between criticizing Evangelicals and other religions?
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Question: Does the forum accept anti-evangelical sentiments more than the same sentiments about other religions?
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Yes, and this is acceptabe
 
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Yes, and this is unacceptable
 
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No
 
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Author Topic: Is there a double standard between criticizing Evangelicals and other religions?  (Read 8622 times)
TDAS04
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« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2018, 09:56:26 AM »

Yes, of course. And for a good reason- you'll probably agree that a Jew making jokes about Christians is alright, while a Christian making jokes about big-nosed Jews could be problematic. The Evangelicals, likewise, are a powerful group in America who've never been discriminated by the system or treated unfavourably.

I tend to agree with this.  Similarly, on this American forum, badmouthing white people is not anywhere near as bad as attacking blacks or other historically-oppressed minorities.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2018, 10:19:27 AM »

The silly thing is the notion that evangelicals are anything resembling a homogeneous group.

A group that includes both me and Mike Pence and a hell of a lot in between is obviously one where broad brush generalizations are almost always going to be nonsensical.

No, actually, Evangelicals are exactly the type of group where broad brush strokes are useful. Few groups that command such substantial membership numbers in American society align so heavily in one direction on most major political or social issues.

You're out of the mainstream, and there's nothing wrong with that, but your viewpoints are an outlier compared to your co-religionists.

God, using this word is lame.  We get it, you're very, very enlightened.
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2018, 10:46:31 AM »

I think that, sadly, the Albert Mohlers and Franklin Grahams of the world are far more accurate representatives of American Evangelical Christianity, at this time, than people like BRTD or Jimmy Carter.

But that probably will change when the former group starts dying off.

And, obviously, it's not just Evangelicalism that's dominated by lunatics.  Islam has plenty of toxic elements, but that's why we should be paying attention to the reformers within that faith and dismiss the Wahhabi/authoritarian/regressive sects.
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2018, 12:57:09 PM »

Maybe Evangelicals as a whole shouldn't be so hypocritical and actually vehemently against the Christian religion? Anything is fair game when the majority seems to do that. The people who are actually good Christian evangelicals can't complain since they remain silent and do nothing. It's all deserved.

Russell Moore would like a word:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/10/09/if-donald-trump-has-done-anything-he-has-snuffed-out-the-religious-right/?utm_term=.5f1e29fdf783
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2018, 01:12:44 PM »

How long are you going to keep whining about a single post that was quickly dealt with?
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Torie
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« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2018, 01:48:21 PM »

How long are you going to keep whining about a single post that was quickly dealt with?

I think it fair to say that at least recently, there have been more infracted posts bashing Evangelicals as a group then there have been about other groups. It would be nice if posters would learn to criticize the politics of many Evangelicals, and their activities (e.g., the way some of them suck up to the amoral and reckless narcissist Trump who worships only himself) and what they advocate, rather than just bashing their religious affiliation, or damning the group as a whole because they perceive a majority of them have political opinions, or opinions in general, that they very much dislike. And some I think are willing to just take the infractions because they really want to lash out that much, that they don't care that it violates the TOS.

So I can understand that some of our Evangelical posters are unhappy right now. Hopefully this too will pass. There is just so much else out there that right now that one can lash out at without violating the TOS, to help get the anger out of the system. Sad, but true. We live in interesting times.
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Sprouts Farmers Market ✘
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« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2018, 01:54:17 PM »

The Christians are the second most disrespected group in America today after our brave police people.
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2018, 02:05:24 PM »

The Christians are the second most disrespected group in America today after our brave police people.
Can anyone name a group that is more disrespected than atheists?
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Torie
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« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2018, 02:10:17 PM »
« Edited: April 03, 2018, 02:14:24 PM by Torie »

The Christians are the second most disrespected group in America today after our brave police people.
Can anyone name a group that is more disrespected than atheists?

I have never in my life suffered disrespect for being an atheist, by anyone, be they religious or non-religious. Granted, many would not vote for me if I ran for office, but on a personal level, I think most take in stride that many are skeptical that God exists.  Granted, I don't go around bashing folks of faith. I assiduously avoid doing that in fact, and always have. That might be part of the reason that I have never had a problem.

I ran for office in Hudson, and lost alas. I wonder how many on this forum who are folks of faith would not have voted for me simply because I am an atheist. I suspect the answer would be close to none.
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2018, 02:15:52 PM »

The Christians are the second most disrespected group in America today after our brave police people.
Can anyone name a group that is more disrespected than atheists?

I have never in my life suffered disrespect for being an atheist, by anyone, be they religious or non-religious. Granted, many would not vote for me if I ran for office, but on a personal level, I think most take in stride that many are skeptical that God exists.  Granted, I don't go around bashing folks of faith. I assiduously avoid doing that in fact, and always have. That might be part of the reason that I have never had a problem.
Yes, I know what you are saying, and I don't think it is so much personal as just an underlying prejudice and mind set. I base this on polls that show animosity toward atheists, but that may not mean that anyone goes after individuals. Nobody wants to be accused of being prejudiced against groups, so they don't want to attack people on a personal basis.
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snowguy716
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« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2018, 02:21:10 PM »

What I say to Evangelicals:  Keep your religion out of politics, and I'll keep my politics out of your religion!
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2018, 02:21:15 PM »

The Christians are the second most disrespected group in America today after our brave police people.
Can anyone name a group that is more disrespected than atheists?

Smilo's being Smilo, but you... are you f#cking serious?
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2018, 02:32:34 PM »

The Christians are the second most disrespected group in America today after our brave police people.
Can anyone name a group that is more disrespected than atheists?

Jews, African-Americans, Hispanics, Muslims, LGBT folks, immigrants in general, women, WWC folks, the list goes on and on.  
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RFayette
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« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2018, 03:26:16 PM »

I think that, sadly, the Albert Mohlers and Franklin Grahams of the world are far more accurate representatives of American Evangelical Christianity, at this time, than people like BRTD or Jimmy Carter.

But that probably will change when the former group starts dying off.

And, obviously, it's not just Evangelicalism that's dominated by lunatics.  Islam has plenty of toxic elements, but that's why we should be paying attention to the reformers within that faith and dismiss the Wahhabi/authoritarian/regressive sects.

Albert Mohler is against Trump though.  You can criticize him on theological grounds, but for the purposes of this discussion he is no Franklin Graham.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2018, 03:47:21 PM »

I think that, sadly, the Albert Mohlers and Franklin Grahams of the world are far more accurate representatives of American Evangelical Christianity, at this time, than people like BRTD or Jimmy Carter.

But that probably will change when the former group starts dying off.

And, obviously, it's not just Evangelicalism that's dominated by lunatics.  Islam has plenty of toxic elements, but that's why we should be paying attention to the reformers within that faith and dismiss the Wahhabi/authoritarian/regressive sects.

Albert Mohler is against Trump though.  You can criticize him on theological grounds, but for the purposes of this discussion he is no Franklin Graham.

Being against Trump doesn't really help if you hate gays, transgender, any type of non traditional marriage, etc.
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FEMA Camp Administrator
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« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2018, 04:06:43 PM »

The Christians are the second most disrespected group in America today after our brave police people.
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Mr. Reactionary
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« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2018, 04:43:10 PM »

LOL no, I dislike evangelical Christians because they claim to care about the Bible (and use the Bible to make my life harder than it has to be because they don't like that I'm attracted to men) but then throw their support behind a blatantly hedonistic, thrice-married, sexual-assaulting serial adulterer instead of the devout Methodist woman, because the Methodist deleted emails, or something.

I mean, a lot of conservative Baptists like myself didnt vote for Trump. Unfair stereotypes are unfair stereotypes, especially when Catholics are the largest US Christian group. Plus its not like Hillary was ethical or a friend to evangelicals either.
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RFayette
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« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2018, 07:59:27 PM »

The silly thing is the notion that evangelicals are anything resembling a homogeneous group.

A group that includes both me and Mike Pence and a hell of a lot in between is obviously one where broad brush generalizations are almost always going to be nonsensical.

This.  There's also a big rift within the Southern Baptist Convention - the biggest Evangelical organization in the USA - on Trump and related issues (immigration, racial reconciliation, etc.) with folks like Russell Moore and Albert Mohler on one side vs. Robert Jeffress and Richard Land, among others.  Nuance tends to be lost when discussing these groups.

It could just be that I’ve coincidentally met an unusual number of moderate/more independent-minded evangelicals, but from my (obviously limited) experience there do seem to be some real divides in the community.  Another one is over how to handle the fact that many evangelical churches are losing their younger members pretty rapidly.

As an insider so to speak, I think there are multiple factors at play.  It's not purely an age issue - for instance, the staff at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and the SBC's Ethical and Religious Liberty Commission, along with The Gospel Coalition are all pretty strongly anti-Trump, many of whom are older.   These are 3 pretty major Evangelical institutions, so I think it's definitely an important part of the picture. Most prominent Evangelical pastors within the Reformed community were against him - such as Kevin DeYoung, John Piper, Albert Mohler, James White, Matt Chandler, Tim Keller, etc., with the notable exception of John MacArthur - it seems the non-Calvinist contingent of Evangelicalism was warmer to Trump on average, but perhaps that's biased by the prominence of Falwell Jr and Jeffress.  Also, the polling I've seen shows that pastors of Evangelical churches were significantly less likely to have voted for Trump than laypeople. 

So it's a much more complicated dynamic than seen in the media - I'm sure in other religious communities there is a similar story where simple narratives don't capture the full picture.
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Lord Admirale
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« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2018, 09:16:53 PM »

I’d say that people who bash reactionary Christians in the south but defend reactionary Muslims in Saudi Arabia are morons.

Same goes in reverse.
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Fuzzy Stands With His Friend, Chairman Sanchez
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« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2018, 10:40:54 PM »

No, because much of the critique Evangelicals receive is for political reasons. Evangelicals believe many silly things, but then again, so do all religions. The real problem for Evangelicals is that much of their activities aren't benign religious engagements so much as they are politics dressed up as religion. The moment you politicize something, its detractors will emerge from the woodwork right behind it.

I agree with the highlighted sentiment.  Evangelical Christians, like everyone else, don't have the right to be uncritically received once they jump into a political forum. 

I agree that Evangelicals, to some extent, overemphasize politics.  But we are citizens, and we do wish to impact our communities and our nation with public policy reflective of our views, just like everyone else.

I would also state that Evangelicals have become politically active as a means of defending their religious liberties.  The reality for all people, everywhere, is that the only rights they have are the rights they can defend.  Being politically active, exercising juice at the ballot box, is how individuals and groups in America defend their rights.  This is one reason I find the calls for Evangelicals to not be involved in politics from non-Evangelicals or marginal Evangelicals to be ridiculous.  The results of the poll in this very thread suggests that I cannot count on anti-Evangelical liberals to respect my Constitutional Rights in sufficient numbers for those rights to be adequately defended.

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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2018, 10:50:22 PM »

How long are you going to keep whining about a single post that was quickly dealt with?

This is why the US General Discussion board mods really need to adopt the "salt the Earth" moderating approach that I used to take: If a post is too offensive to be posted on the forum, then you not only delete the post itself, but also other posts in the thread that quote it.  That wasn't done in this case, which means that the outrage machine just continues when others read what was posted, and there's no end in sight.
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Fuzzy Stands With His Friend, Chairman Sanchez
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« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2018, 11:14:19 PM »

What I say to Evangelicals:  Keep your religion out of politics, and I'll keep my politics out of your religion!
Don't hold your breath.

My complaint isn't criticism of Evangelicals and their political stances.  When you enter the political arena, you lose the right to be received uncritically.  (That, by the way, applies to Khizir Kahn as well as Evangelicals.)

When someone splits up Evangelicals by race and calls all Evangelicals of one race "trash", that's more than being critical.  That presumably educated folks see that and are OK with that is something that should cause one to wonder just how "liberal" those folks really are.  Perhaps the "outrage machine" is humming along beyond what folks thought it would because the offensive behavior (on the part of more than one poster) had been allowed to go on long enough until one poster simply pushed the envelope too far.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2018, 12:48:40 PM »

Yes it seems to be a pretty major blind spot for many of our centre/left posters. A significant minority of this forum is comfortable with prejudice about Evangelicals that they would never tolerate with other groups.

Some of the posts on this thread prove it; doubling down on theur bigotry when confronted.


What I say to Evangelicals:  Keep your religion out of politics, and I'll keep my politics out of your religion!

I don't trust that sentiment as far as I can throw it. Not that I don't trust you personally Snowguy, but most Evangelicals are ah... skeptical that our institutions that our political opponents will leave our institutions alone.
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Fuzzy Stands With His Friend, Chairman Sanchez
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« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2018, 07:34:57 AM »
« Edited: April 05, 2018, 07:41:18 AM by Fuzzy Bear »

I think that, sadly, the Albert Mohlers and Franklin Grahams of the world are far more accurate representatives of American Evangelical Christianity, at this time, than people like BRTD or Jimmy Carter.

But that probably will change when the former group starts dying off.

And, obviously, it's not just Evangelicalism that's dominated by lunatics.  Islam has plenty of toxic elements, but that's why we should be paying attention to the reformers within that faith and dismiss the Wahhabi/authoritarian/regressive sects.


https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/islam-facts-or-dreams/


https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/islam-facts-or-dreams/

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Understand that the reason I am a Christian is that I believe that Jesus Christ is who he says He is.  Accordingly, I view Mohammed as a false prophet.  As such, I view the Quranic view of Allah to be a false description of the character of God (if one believes that there is only one God, and the Allah of the Quran is the same as Jehovah God of the Bible).  The God of the Bible loves sinners, sent His Son to die in their place that they may be reconciled to Him and be with Him Forever.  This is black letter Scripture; not abstract, not vague.  The Protestant Reformation was an act which reformed the Church from where it DEVIATED from Scripture and ADDED TO Scripture extra-Biblical concepts that actually contradicted the faith.

In addition, the New Testament is the New Covenant God has with His People.  When asked which of the 10 Commandments was the most important, Christ, Himself, stated "You shall love the Lord with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul and all your strength.  This is the First Great Commandment.  And the Second is like it:  You shall love your neighbor as yourself."  He told His Disciples:  "A New Commandment I give you:  Love one another, as I have loved you."  He said of his followers:  "By the, (the World) will know them; that they will have love, one for the other."  I could go on and on.  If modern American Evangelical Christianity needs a "reformation", it would be a reformation that would bring it into conformity to Scripture in ways where it has deviated.

I do not profess to know the Quran as well as I know the Bible.  But to the extent that Islam needs a "reformation", it would be a movement to bring Islam AWAY from the Quranic Scriptures; in effect, rewriting the Islamic Scriptures themselves, or adding to them in a way that would cancel out the words of Mohammed, himself.  While a Second Evangelical Reformation would be to make Christianity MORE Scriptural, an Islamic Reformation would be a move to make Islam LESS Scriptural.  The doctrines that would reform Islam in the ways that Scott (or Andrew McCarthy, for that matter) would wish to see are doctrines that would contradict the Quran as it is now.

With Christians, it is individuals that need to be reformed, to conform them more closely to Scripture.  The Crazies of Christianity out there (Westboro Baptist Church, Branch Davidians, Abortion Bombers, and most perpetrators of "sectarian violence") all are OUT OF COMPLIANCE WITH SCRIPTURE.  (I'm sure my list is incomplete.)  All of them.  Jesus was never about a political movement, and He was not about a war to overthrow His enemies.  (That fact disappointed the Pharisees of His day.)  Biblical Christianity isn't about that today, either; it's about presenting the Gospel to the whole world, giving the whole world a chance for Salvation, before Jesus Christ returns.  

I think Mr. McCarthy makes a strong argument that the crazies of Islam are IN COMPLIANCE with Islam.  This, to me, is a critical difference between Islam and Christianity.  As Mr. McCarthy points out, the "moderate, peaceful Muslims" are the ones who are out of compliance with the Quran; it is the Jihadists who are in compliance.  I'm certainly willing to listen to reasonable arguments to the contrary.  But I view this is as pretty significant because both Christianity and Islam are "religions of the book".  It says something when the desirable outcome for this lifetime (truly loving and tolerant people) can be achieved by following one book (the Bible) more closely, but requires ignoring significant portions of another book (the Quran) to achieve the same thing.

I realize that many Evangelical Christians fall short of the standards Christ has set for them.  I'm sure I have at times, and I'm willing to bring myself into conformity with Scripture.  I'm not always thrilled with the politics of Evangelical leaders, and even everyday Evangelical Christians, for that matter.  But most all of them I know ask God to help them be more kind and loving, and I see their kind and loving acts on a regular basis.  I see ordinary Christians every day step up to help others in need they don't know about.  (A Christian brother of mine who owns a roofing company put a new roof on a man's house; the church took up an offering for the materials and he and his son did all the work, because the man's roof was likely to cave in; this happened ONLY because this roofer was a Christian and God laid this on his heart.  This is just one example.)  Their Good Works aren't for Salvation; that was paid for at Calvary.  Their Good Works are to glorify God; hence, the anonymity of their deeds.

There are some folks here that are so politicized that they would reject their college loans being paid off if an Evangelical Christian was writing the check.  I believe that number is relatively few.  I would suggest that many folks here are so blinded by their prejudices toward Evangelicals that they really have no idea of what Scripture asks of a Christian.  "Love one another as I have loved you."  I forgive RFKFan68 for unfairly maligning White Evangelicals as a group.  I forgive others for their double standard.  I don't wish them ill.  I do think that bringing the double standard out into the open is something that has been overdue here.  

"Love one another as I have loved you."  Can you apply that standard to Betsy DeVos (let alone Donald Trump)?  



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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2018, 08:41:55 AM »

Yes, and evangelicals themselves are very sensitive about it.
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