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Question: Does the forum accept anti-evangelical sentiments more than the same sentiments about other religions?
Yes, and this is acceptabe   -30 (34.1%)
Yes, and this is unacceptable   -34 (38.6%)
No   -24 (27.3%)
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Total Voters: 88

Author Topic: Is there a double standard between criticizing Evangelicals and other religions?  (Read 4017 times)
Fuzzy Bear
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« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2018, 11:28:23 pm »

I think you're up to the task.   😁
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🌈Rainbow Jihad
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« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2018, 08:46:21 pm »

I think you're up to the task.   

Okay.

First of all, I am a Christian.  I was raised in the faith and I'm glad to say I've been an unwavering follower of Christ even on my darkest days.  At one point I had even planned on joining the ministry, and attended a church-affiliated college as a theology student (incidentally, it was during my time at that college that I began my spiritual conversion to Anglicanism and drifted from the more Reformed-oriented traditions of the UCC - the church that I was baptized in - and also realized that ministry was not my calling).  My own theology, my own understanding of Scripture and my personal relationship with God, has evolved and continues to evolve, but the foundation of that relationship (Christ) never changes.  I had read each page of the Bible, cover to cover, by the time I was a junior in high school.

Here's what I discovered: the Bible is not an infallible fourth member of the Trinity and it need not - it cannot - take precedence over observation and reason.  We cannot discern intuitive and rational truth by relying solely on texts that were, for all intents and purposes, written by fallible humans.  Scripture must be perceived and interpreted in light of reason and context.  Otherwise, it is meaningless.

Obviously, my own God-inspired approach to scripture does not fully align with yours.

Like Christianity, Islam is divided on interpretation of holy scripture as well as scripture's specific role within the faith.  A minority of Muslims believe that Quran alone applies and ignore the Hadiths.  Most Muslims believe that the Hadiths are authoritative secondary to the Quran, and some Sunnis believe that they are equal.  Does that difference in opinion make any of these groups comparatively "less Muslim" than the others?  Of course not.

You cannot attempt to reconcile the underlying assumptions of one religion with another.  You proclaim Islam to be a false religion.  Would you consider it "less false" if believers took your understanding of scriptural authority - toward your own religious text - and applied it to their own?  No.  As such it is irrelevant whom you or Andrew McCarthy believe to be 'out of compliance' with Islam.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 10:00:40 pm by Scott🦋 »Logged
libertpaulian
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« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2018, 05:00:59 pm »

I think you're up to the task.   

Okay.

First of all, I am a Christian.  I was raised in the faith and I'm glad to say I've been an unwavering follower of Christ even on my darkest days.  At one point I had even planned on joining the ministry, and attended a church-affiliated college as a theology student (incidentally, it was during my time at that college that I began my spiritual conversion to Anglicanism and drifted from the more Reformed-oriented traditions of the UCC - the church that I was baptized in - and also realized that ministry was not my calling).  My own theology, my own understanding of Scripture and my personal relationship with God, has evolved and continues to evolve, but the foundation of that relationship (Christ) never changes.  I had read each page of the Bible, cover to cover, by the time I was a junior in high school.

Here's what I discovered: the Bible is not an infallible fourth member of the Trinity and it need not - it cannot - take precedence over observation and reason.  We cannot discern intuitive and rational truth by relying solely on texts that were, for all intents and purposes, written by fallible humans.  Scripture must be perceived and interpreted in light of reason and context.  Otherwise, it is meaningless.

Obviously, my own God-inspired approach to scripture does not fully align with yours.

Like Christianity, Islam is divided on interpretation of holy scripture as well as scripture's specific role within the faith.  A minority of Muslims believe that Quran alone applies and ignore the Hadiths.  Most Muslims believe that the Hadiths are authoritative secondary to the Quran, and some Sunnis believe that they are equal.  Does that difference in opinion make any of these groups comparatively "less Muslim" than the others?  Of course not.

You cannot attempt to reconcile the underlying assumptions of one religion with another.  You proclaim Islam to be a false religion.  Would you consider it "less false" if believers took your understanding of scriptural authority - toward your own religious text - and applied it to their own?  No.  As such it is irrelevant whom you or Andrew McCarthy believe to be 'out of compliance' with Islam.
I think the problem also lies in HOW Scripture is interpreted.  Many mouth-breathing Evangelicals seem to think that the Bible should be interpreted the way Brother Billy Bob preaches it.

My tradition is Lutheranism.  We tend to interpret the Bible in a two-fold manner: 1) The Bible contains Law, which exposes our sinful nature and our need for a Savior, and 2) it also contains Gospel, which is the hope that we have to be saved from our sins.

We also believe the Bible is meant to be interpreted in a Gospel-centric lens.  So, the story of Moses delivering the Jews out of Egypt, King David's fall from grace, the Passover, etc., despite being in the Old Testament, contain truths that can be interpreted as the Gospel.
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🌈Rainbow Jihad
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« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2018, 05:30:44 pm »

I think the problem also lies in HOW Scripture is interpreted.  Many mouth-breathing Evangelicals seem to think that the Bible should be interpreted the way Brother Billy Bob preaches it.

My tradition is Lutheranism.  We tend to interpret the Bible in a two-fold manner: 1) The Bible contains Law, which exposes our sinful nature and our need for a Savior, and 2) it also contains Gospel, which is the hope that we have to be saved from our sins.

We also believe the Bible is meant to be interpreted in a Gospel-centric lens.  So, the story of Moses delivering the Jews out of Egypt, King David's fall from grace, the Passover, etc., despite being in the Old Testament, contain truths that can be interpreted as the Gospel.

Yeah.

Some of that has to do with the fact that an alarming number of preachers have zero religious education under their belts.  They either fall entirely on their own literalistic interpretation of scripture, or worse, they don't read scripture at all and instead simply regurgitate their favorite televangelists.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 09:34:12 pm by Scott🦋 »Logged
Beto Bro
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« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2018, 10:24:28 pm »

Img
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Fuzzy Bear
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« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2019, 11:02:15 pm »

It's pretty amazing that 37% of folks here think such a double standard is acceptable.

Is this OK?

Img


Img


Img


Img


If it is OK, would it be OK if I looked up Quranic Scripture and made similar parodies?  I don't intend to, but would it be OK?
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All States will be D
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« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2019, 11:03:57 pm »

Yes, because it's one of the most backwards religions on Earth.
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fhtagn
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« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2019, 11:09:21 pm »

I dont really care either way, I think it's perfectly acceptable to attack or defend all religions as you see fit. That being said, if some attacks are commonly moderated for discrimination, then the same thing should either apply to all of them, or the mods should stop moderating those posts.
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PSOL
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« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2019, 11:32:35 pm »

The issue is nonexistant. What is actually the case is that Evangelicals have more sway/ do more wrong than other religious groups filled with mostly nominal members that donít influence policy. Evangelicals are just thin-skinned and localized in their projections in the American context.

From my posting, youíll see me give criticism of all the rackets when the time comes for a discussion. I only do so when the criticism is relevant and credible, something the theocrats here donít do.
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« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2019, 11:43:31 pm »

It's pretty amazing that 37% of folks here think such a double standard is acceptable.

Is this OK?

Img


Img


Img


Img


If it is OK, would it be OK if I looked up Quranic Scripture and made similar parodies?  I don't intend to, but would it be OK?

Yes, because those memes are hilarious and it would be equally hilarious if Quran verses were used instead.

...But since when are Evangelicals the only ones who believe the Bible?
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« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2019, 11:50:52 pm »

If it is OK, would it be OK if I looked up Quranic Scripture and made similar parodies?  I don't intend to, but would it be OK?

Yes
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Celes
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« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2019, 12:03:10 am »

There seems to be a pretty consistent yet moderate anti-"religion" bias/skepticism in general here and in real life.

Just speculation, but I don't think most atheists or agnostics think that evangelicalism is, like, the far-and-away worst tradition out there. I get the feeling it sounds that way sometimes because the most vocal evangelical groups and figureheads in the United States (not to mention, like, college campus protesters) are really, really obnoxious and more-than-occasionally criminal frauds. Evangelicalism here is unpopular, but more than anything it's just a conveniently placed easy target that most young people on Atlas agree on. Big tent fervor kinda thing, if I'm not mistaken. I could be wrong.

I'll admit that anti-evangelical bias exists here, and whether it's a function of humor or genuine intolerance, it's a generalization. It's intellectually dishonest, and it can be kind of mean-spirited at worst. Thankfully, we're generally adults here and it doesn't often go too far.

At the same time, I don't think it's a severe problem. I'm really not concerned about anti-evangelical bias here because this is a forum about politics and evangelicalism is used in America as a political weapon. Evangelicalism is often relevant, and the fact that a majority of people on this forum have a negative opinion of it does not in and of itself constitute discrimination or selective enforcement or whatever. This is especially true given that evangelicalism is not just any political weapon, but a weapon effectively turned on the LGBT community, people of color, the poor, women, members of other traditions, and refugees.

It would be irresponsible to say that all evangelicals endorse all or any of those things, but it is a fact that the organized evangelical institution has largely been mobilized against the rights and welfare of marginalized groups since Carter left office. Given that, I think we all have the right to be a little skeptical of evangelicalism. I don't think being outright mean is okay, but I also haven't seen a whole lot of that here.

It's the same thing as conservatives complaining about being oppressed on college campuses or whatever. Sure, that bias is there, but there's no institutional conspiracy against evangelicals. People just disagree.
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Badger
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« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2019, 03:08:40 am »

The Christians are the second most disrespected group in America today after our brave police people.
Can anyone name a group that is more disrespected than atheists?

I have never in my life suffered disrespect for being an atheist, by anyone, be they religious or non-religious. Granted, many would not vote for me if I ran for office, but on a personal level, I think most take in stride that many are skeptical that God exists.  Granted, I don't go around bashing folks of faith. I assiduously avoid doing that in fact, and always have. That might be part of the reason that I have never had a problem.

I ran for office in Hudson, and lost alas. I wonder how many on this forum who are folks of faith would not have voted for me simply because I am an atheist. I suspect the answer would be close to none.

You ran for City Council in an upper-middle-class to Rich highly educated Suburban town. Try running for congress anywhere outside such an area and see how well your atheism plays.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 03:12:00 am by Badger »Logged
Badger
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« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2019, 03:17:01 am »

The major distinction here is that evangelist, at least to the degree they are involved in politics, and this is a political discussion site after all, specifically seek to impose explicit evangical religious Doctrine as public policy. Jews do not run for office in order to impose talmudic law in the public sphere, and, sorry fuzzy, Muslims in this country do not seek to impose Sharia law and the public sphere when they run for office either, regardless of what cretin  drafted website projecting its own desire to impose Conservative Christian law in this country might say.

This is a practice fairly unique to fundamentalist Christians, including Conservative Catholics, fwiw. I'm sorry, but if fundamentalists seek to the essentially the only religion seeking to impose its specific scriptural Holdings into public policy, it's going to invite legitimate criticism of said views.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #64 on: January 07, 2019, 05:59:35 am »

     Criticizing common views of Evangelicals is fine. Bashing them as a group as some are wont to do is bigotry, and inherently evil.
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« Reply #65 on: January 07, 2019, 08:42:07 am »

Attacking religious groups is perfectly fine, not bigoted and not comparable to bashing based on race, gender or sexual orientation. That's because religion is a chosen trait that one decides for themselves, unlike the other traits. Its more comparable to bashing and attacking members of a political party.
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Comrade Funk
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« Reply #66 on: January 07, 2019, 09:08:29 am »

The persecution complex of the religious right is staggering.
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muon2
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« Reply #67 on: January 07, 2019, 09:40:28 am »

Attacking religious groups is perfectly fine, not bigoted and not comparable to bashing based on race, gender or sexual orientation. That's because religion is a chosen trait that one decides for themselves, unlike the other traits. Its more comparable to bashing and attacking members of a political party.

Be careful there. Hate speech and discrimination laws apply to religion and religious groups, too. Clever parody can be a way to avoid crossing into bigotry, but banal attacks on religion can be construed as hateful or discriminatory and would then be against the ToS.
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Cath
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« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2019, 09:48:59 am »

As a Christian, I feel those range between slightly funny and in bad taste, but not particularly offensive.
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« Reply #69 on: January 07, 2019, 10:16:30 am »

It's pretty amazing that 37% of folks here think such a double standard is acceptable.

Is this OK?

Img


Img


Img


Img


If it is OK, would it be OK if I looked up Quranic Scripture and made similar parodies?  I don't intend to, but would it be OK?
Reposting something you already reported is a bit silly, If I infract the OP then I have to infract you. no?
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Karpatsky
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« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2019, 10:25:41 am »

There is in that there are a number of posters here who regularly respond strongly and emotionally to criticism of that religion, such that such criticisms often become larger debates. No such noise is typically created when similar criticism is put up of other Protestants, Muslims, or nonbelievers, because there are not posters willing to regularly defend these to the same degree.
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Representative Carpetbagger
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« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2019, 10:57:19 am »

The other day I saw a thread about Missouri, and why Republicans are so successful there.  A poster claimed that part of the reason was Southern Baptists, and how they are basically stupid.  I don't think it was necessarily mean-spirited.  People just assume that Evangelicals are stupid, and our culture reinforces that belief.  And they've been doing this at least the 1920s, when they performed character assassination on William Jennings Bryan.

I am basically an Atlas unicorn.  I am an Evangelical from the Bible Belt who did not vote for Trump despite the fact that I did vote for Rand Paul, Thomas Massie, and other Republicans at the local level.  My family also refused to vote for Trump.  I had many reasons why I didn't vote for Trump, but if he hadn't been an inspiration to racists across the country, I probably would have held my nose and voted for him.

Here is an interesting article:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/no-the-majority-of-american-evangelicals-did-not-vote-for-trump/

I actually was not born into an Evangelical family.  My parents were moderate Lutherans when I was born (I think it was Missouri Synod, but I don't remember, it might have been ELCA).  When I was very young, my family temporarily moved to the UK, and my parents became Evangelical Christians.  They appreciated how British Evangelicals rarely talked about politics.  Despite the fact that they didn't preach about abortion, my mother was convicted that it was immoral from reading the Bible.  This was in the late '90s.

At that time, I was a very young child.  I have been attending Evangelical churches most of my life, often Southern Baptist churches.  During that time, the pastors didn't talk about politics very often, and I was never told how to vote.  The only times I remember hearing about politics were on the 35th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, and a few messages around the time of Obergefell v. Hodges.  IIRC these were Sunday school messages, not regular sermons.  My most recent church in Kentucky doesn't preach politics at all, and the preacher condemns racism just as often as he condemns abortion (maybe even more often).  The main theme of his sermons are always the gospel, though.

Many people act as if Evangelical Christianity was invented by Jerry Falwell to get Christians to vote Republican.  It wasn't.  We've been around long before the Republican Party and we'll be here after the GOP dissolves.  We exist on all Continents and speak many different languages.  Don't let your hatred for the GOP tarnish your view of a diverse international religious movement.
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NYGurl
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« Reply #72 on: January 07, 2019, 02:00:09 pm »

How long are you going to keep whining about a single post that was quickly dealt with?

This is why the US General Discussion board mods really need to adopt the "salt the Earth" moderating approach that I used to take: If a post is too offensive to be posted on the forum, then you not only delete the post itself, but also other posts in the thread that quote it.  That wasn't done in this case, which means that the outrage machine just continues when others read what was posted, and there's no end in sight.

it hadn't been quoted yet when i deleted the OP and went to bed. Tongue
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« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2019, 08:47:12 pm »

Attacking religious groups is perfectly fine, not bigoted and not comparable to bashing based on race, gender or sexual orientation. That's because religion is a chosen trait that one decides for themselves, unlike the other traits. Its more comparable to bashing and attacking members of a political party.

Um, no?
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« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2019, 08:49:04 pm »

It's pretty amazing that 37% of folks here think such a double standard is acceptable.

Is this OK?

Img


Img


Img


Img


If it is OK, would it be OK if I looked up Quranic Scripture and made similar parodies?  I don't intend to, but would it be OK?

Leaving out the questionable inclusion of a young kid like Baron, does The Holy Hand Grenade scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail offend you? Should it offend Catholics?

Here's a hint. Yes, is right out!
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