NYPD: Man with pipe fatally shot by officers in Brooklyn

[Suburbia]

I actually know this area pretty well. The man allegedly pointed a pipe at police officers. Hmm....

http://abc7ny.com/nypd-man-who-pointed-pipe-fatally-shot-by-officers-in-brooklyn/3301666/

[Jeffster]

He was going around pointing at people like it was a gun. 3 different people called 911 saying a guy was going around pointing a gun at people. The cops came and he continued to point it at them like it was a gun. What do think would happen?

[MAINEiac4434]

Looks like a gun. No one's more critical of cops than me, but I think this was a good shoot.

[Dr. MB]

Who in their right mind would do this?

This is the first one I've seen where the "he asked for it" argument has some merit.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Who in their right mind would do this?

This is the first one I've seen where the "he asked for it" argument has some merit.

Well, from what we know about him, he wasn’t in his right mind; however, based on the images, it looks fairly apparent that the way in which he held and pointed the showerhead looked like—and was intended to look like—a gun.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Who in their right mind would do this?

This is the first one I've seen where the "he asked for it" argument has some merit.

[Joey1996]

And yet whites with actual loaded guns are being arrested without harm, a cop should be able to tell the difference between a gun and a pipe, period. Funny how this man likely had a mental illness but his complexion doesn't afford him that excuse.

[Koharu]

Well, from what we know about him, he wasn’t in his right mind; however, based on the images, it looks fairly apparent that the way in which he held and pointed the showerhead looked like—and was intended to look like—a gun.

And yet whites with actual loaded guns are being arrested without harm, a cop should be able to tell the difference between a gun and a pipe, period. Funny how this man likely had a mental illness but his complexion doesn't afford him that excuse.

^^^^ This.

I think a major part of what we're learning with all these shootings is that police need a lot more training if we're going to have them be the first responders to psychotic breaks. As someone who has had relatives have psychotic breaks, the cops are who you're told to call when it's dangerous to you or others, and if it's not dangerous to you or others, there's not anything anyone can do unless you can convince them to get help voluntarily. Sorry, slight rant.

Anyway, the police need more training if we're going to continue to put them in these positions of quasi-counselors, etc. There's been a study that shows in stressful situations, people fall back on their training, which is generally good. However, most police have the most training in how to shoot someone, not how to deal with mental health issues or how to deescalate properly. Then, of course, there is also the race issue which is extremely problematic, and while no amount of training can solve racism, I think it might help, especially if coupled with much more vigorous deescalation training.

Tl;dr: Training isn't a panacea, but police need to have significantly more training in deescalation techniques, mental health, and various other issues before we send them out. It won't solve these issues, but it would be a start.

[BoAtlantis]

Well, from what we know about him, he wasn’t in his right mind; however, based on the images, it looks fairly apparent that the way in which he held and pointed the showerhead looked like—and was intended to look like—a gun.

And yet whites with actual loaded guns are being arrested without harm, a cop should be able to tell the difference between a gun and a pipe, period. Funny how this man likely had a mental illness but his complexion doesn't afford him that excuse.

^^^^ This.

I think a major part of what we're learning with all these shootings is that police need a lot more training if we're going to have them be the first responders to psychotic breaks. As someone who has had relatives have psychotic breaks, the cops are who you're told to call when it's dangerous to you or others, and if it's not dangerous to you or others, there's not anything anyone can do unless you can convince them to get help voluntarily. Sorry, slight rant.

Anyway, the police need more training if we're going to continue to put them in these positions of quasi-counselors, etc. There's been a study that shows in stressful situations, people fall back on their training, which is generally good. However, most police have the most training in how to shoot someone, not how to deal with mental health issues or how to deescalate properly. Then, of course, there is also the race issue which is extremely problematic, and while no amount of training can solve racism, I think it might help, especially if coupled with much more vigorous deescalation training.

Tl;dr: Training isn't a panacea, but police need to have significantly more training in deescalation techniques, mental health, and various other issues before we send them out. It won't solve these issues, but it would be a start.

Supreme Court has ruled on a number of occasions that police have no legal duty to protect individuals; they only need to protect the public at large. (See Warren v. District of Columbia)

If the court punishes cops behavior for abuses, more of them will be afraid to act abusively. The root of the problem starts from our government and legal system that give cops too much authority. Training doesn't really mean a whole lot if they don't want to take even an ounce of risk. Thus it becomes citizens' duty to fully obey or potentially die. Unfortunately, that's the way courts seem to view it.

[Joey1996]

Well, from what we know about him, he wasn’t in his right mind; however, based on the images, it looks fairly apparent that the way in which he held and pointed the showerhead looked like—and was intended to look like—a gun.

And yet whites with actual loaded guns are being arrested without harm, a cop should be able to tell the difference between a gun and a pipe, period. Funny how this man likely had a mental illness but his complexion doesn't afford him that excuse.

^^^^ This.

I think a major part of what we're learning with all these shootings is that police need a lot more training if we're going to have them be the first responders to psychotic breaks. As someone who has had relatives have psychotic breaks, the cops are who you're told to call when it's dangerous to you or others, and if it's not dangerous to you or others, there's not anything anyone can do unless you can convince them to get help voluntarily. Sorry, slight rant.

Anyway, the police need more training if we're going to continue to put them in these positions of quasi-counselors, etc. There's been a study that shows in stressful situations, people fall back on their training, which is generally good. However, most police have the most training in how to shoot someone, not how to deal with mental health issues or how to deescalate properly. Then, of course, there is also the race issue which is extremely problematic, and while no amount of training can solve racism, I think it might help, especially if coupled with much more vigorous deescalation training.

Tl;dr: Training isn't a panacea, but police need to have significantly more training in deescalation techniques, mental health, and various other issues before we send them out. It won't solve these issues, but it would be a start.

Supreme Court has ruled on a number of occasions that police have no legal duty to protect individuals; they only need to protect the public at large. (See Warren v. District of Columbia)

If the court punishes cops behavior for abuses, more of them will be afraid to act abusively. The root of the problem starts from our government and legal system that give cops too much authority. Training doesn't really mean a whole lot if they don't want to take even an ounce of risk. Thus it becomes citizens' duty to fully obey or potentially die. Unfortunately, that's the way courts seem to view it.

A greater reason why no moderate to liberal SCJ should retire until after Trump is voted out of office.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Thank God for Nikolas Cruz he didn't have a pipe.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

And yet whites with actual loaded guns are being arrested without harm, a cop should be able to tell the difference between a gun and a pipe, period. Funny how this man likely had a mental illness but his complexion doesn't afford him that excuse.

They're not being arrested while literally pointing that gun at civilians. Both Cruz and Rooff, while they undeniably deserved to die, had surrendered or were unarmed when they were taken down.

Lumping cases like this, where the officers had legit reason to believe they had seconds to save lives, in with cases like Stephon Clark just serves to weaken the prosecution in those cases.

[Kingpoleon]

And yet whites with actual loaded guns are being arrested without harm, a cop should be able to tell the difference between a gun and a pipe, period. Funny how this man likely had a mental illness but his complexion doesn't afford him that excuse.

If the title was: “Police see man holding gun and pointing it at them, and shoot him”
Would you say: “They shouldn’t have shot a guy with a mental illness.”?

Police can’t tell in a split second decision if someone has a mental illness. If a man points a gun or an object that looks like a gun at police officers, he will be shot. I’ve always been taught to respect police officers, not to move at them except at a slow walk, and to always be sure they can see your hands. I have a white aunt who saw my mother pulled over by a cop many years; she was pregnant at the time, had her husband circle around to behind the cop, and she jumped out and started running to explain to the cop what had happened. The police officer drew his gun and almost shot her - the only reason he didn’t is because she was visibly pregnant and nearly waddling. The point is, you don’t move in a manner that could possibly be taken as threatening around cops. You don’t duck your head so they can’t quite look at you. You don’t suddenly move or suddenly stick your hands in your pockets. Police are preemptive, cautious, and vigilant, because they know that every day they go to work, they might not return to their families.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

And yet whites with actual loaded guns are being arrested without harm, a cop should be able to tell the difference between a gun and a pipe, period. Funny how this man likely had a mental illness but his complexion doesn't afford him that excuse.

If the title was: “Police see man holding gun and pointing it at them, and shoot him”
Would you say: “They shouldn’t have shot a guy with a mental illness.”?

Police can’t tell in a split second decision if someone has a mental illness. If a man points a gun or an object that looks like a gun at police officers, he will be shot. I’ve always been taught to respect police officers, not to move at them except at a slow walk, and to always be sure they can see your hands. I have a white aunt who saw my mother pulled over by a cop many years; she was pregnant at the time, had her husband circle around to behind the cop, and she jumped out and started running to explain to the cop what had happened. The police officer drew his gun and almost shot her - the only reason he didn’t is because she was visibly pregnant and nearly waddling. The point is, you don’t move in a manner that could possibly be taken as threatening around cops. You don’t duck your head so they can’t quite look at you. You don’t suddenly move or suddenly stick your hands in your pockets. Police are preemptive, cautious, and vigilant, because they know that every day they go to work, they might not return to their families.

And of all the professions that are dangerous, police work doesn't even make the top ten.  But let's put that aside for a moment.  Is this not a risk that they accept when they take the job?  No one is forced to become a police officer.  You serve for the benefit of the community that you took an oath to protect.  People do not magically become your subjects because you wear a badge.

[Joey1996]

And yet whites with actual loaded guns are being arrested without harm, a cop should be able to tell the difference between a gun and a pipe, period. Funny how this man likely had a mental illness but his complexion doesn't afford him that excuse.

They're not being arrested while literally pointing that gun at civilians. Both Cruz and Rooff, while they undeniably deserved to die, had surrendered or were unarmed when they were taken down.

Lumping cases like this, where the officers had legit reason to believe they had seconds to save lives, in with cases like Stephon Clark just serves to weaken the prosecution in those cases.

Oh?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/white-n-c-man-arrested-after-pulling-gun-on-deputy-who-wrestled-it-away-sheriff-says/?utm_term=.cd4137f7ae3e

https://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/8-white-people-who-pointed-guns-police-officers-and-managed-not-get-killed

[Joey1996]

And yet whites with actual loaded guns are being arrested without harm, a cop should be able to tell the difference between a gun and a pipe, period. Funny how this man likely had a mental illness but his complexion doesn't afford him that excuse.

If the title was: “Police see man holding gun and pointing it at them, and shoot him”
Would you say: “They shouldn’t have shot a guy with a mental illness.”?

Police can’t tell in a split second decision if someone has a mental illness. If a man points a gun or an object that looks like a gun at police officers, he will be shot. I’ve always been taught to respect police officers, not to move at them except at a slow walk, and to always be sure they can see your hands. I have a white aunt who saw my mother pulled over by a cop many years; she was pregnant at the time, had her husband circle around to behind the cop, and she jumped out and started running to explain to the cop what had happened. The police officer drew his gun and almost shot her - the only reason he didn’t is because she was visibly pregnant and nearly waddling. The point is, you don’t move in a manner that could possibly be taken as threatening around cops. You don’t duck your head so they can’t quite look at you. You don’t suddenly move or suddenly stick your hands in your pockets. Police are preemptive, cautious, and vigilant, because they know that every day they go to work, they might not return to their families.

1. Cops are public servants who are paid through my tax dollars, I will not treat them like they are my superiors. They are supposed to serve my community, not strike fear into it. I shouldn't have to teach my children how to interact with the police in order to come home alive after a routine stop for speeding violation.

2. Police should be calm during intense situations, they should be able to tell the difference between a gun and a pipe or a cell phone, and their first option should never be to shoot first and ask questions later. Otherwise they shouldn't be a cop.

3. Cops should be trained to recognize and deal with people who suffer from mental illness without killing them, there are people who can't help their behavior, arresting them without harm is entirely possible.

I'm tired of the excuses for this madness, it happens nowhere else in the developed world with this sort of frequency. Yhe laws which allow cops to behave however they want without accountability need to be abolished, and cops need to be trained to defuse altercations and not escalate them. 

[Joey1996]

And yet whites with actual loaded guns are being arrested without harm, a cop should be able to tell the difference between a gun and a pipe, period. Funny how this man likely had a mental illness but his complexion doesn't afford him that excuse.

If the title was: “Police see man holding gun and pointing it at them, and shoot him”
Would you say: “They shouldn’t have shot a guy with a mental illness.”?

Police can’t tell in a split second decision if someone has a mental illness. If a man points a gun or an object that looks like a gun at police officers, he will be shot. I’ve always been taught to respect police officers, not to move at them except at a slow walk, and to always be sure they can see your hands. I have a white aunt who saw my mother pulled over by a cop many years; she was pregnant at the time, had her husband circle around to behind the cop, and she jumped out and started running to explain to the cop what had happened. The police officer drew his gun and almost shot her - the only reason he didn’t is because she was visibly pregnant and nearly waddling. The point is, you don’t move in a manner that could possibly be taken as threatening around cops. You don’t duck your head so they can’t quite look at you. You don’t suddenly move or suddenly stick your hands in your pockets. Police are preemptive, cautious, and vigilant, because they know that every day they go to work, they might not return to their families.

And of all the professions that are dangerous, police work doesn't even make the top ten.  But let's put that aside for a moment.  Is this not a risk that they accept when they take the job?  No one is forced to become a police officer.  You serve for the benefit of the community that you took an oath to protect.  People do not magically become your subjects because you wear a badge.

This.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Oh yeah, speaking of mental illness:

https://nypost.com/2018/02/15/cop-found-not-guilty-in-fatal-shooting-of-mentally-ill-woman/

https://nypost.com/2017/03/25/cop-convicted-of-manslaughter-in-shooting-of-6-year-old-autistic-boy/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Charles_Kinsey

http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/home-page/71-featured-articles/2846-people-with-mental-illness-four-times-more-likely-to-be-shot-and-killed-by-police

The United States isn't the only country with mentally ill people.  Why is this only an issue for American police?

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

And yet whites with actual loaded guns are being arrested without harm, a cop should be able to tell the difference between a gun and a pipe, period. Funny how this man likely had a mental illness but his complexion doesn't afford him that excuse.

They're not being arrested while literally pointing that gun at civilians. Both Cruz and Rooff, while they undeniably deserved to die, had surrendered or were unarmed when they were taken down.

Lumping cases like this, where the officers had legit reason to believe they had seconds to save lives, in with cases like Stephon Clark just serves to weaken the prosecution in those cases.

Oh?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/white-n-c-man-arrested-after-pulling-gun-on-deputy-who-wrestled-it-away-sheriff-says/?utm_term=.cd4137f7ae3e

https://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/8-white-people-who-pointed-guns-police-officers-and-managed-not-get-killed

Okay, so you found a few cases of cops who went above and beyond, possibly because the suspect was white.

This guy had something that looked very much like a gun, he was holding it like a gun, and he was actively pointing it at children on the street. That's on video. The cops rolled up and had seconds to respond.

There's been a lot of cases where police were in zero danger, had no indication that the suspect was going to hurt anyone or was even capable of it. This isn't one of those cases. I'm not sure if it was an actual suicide-by-cop, but it has all the hallmarks.

[Progressive Pessimist]

When one is presented with an issue of a police shooting, one should ask themselves whether the perpetrator, for whatever they did, deserved to die for that. The answer is usually no. This was a dumb thing to do, but did he deserve to die for it? Probably not.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

When one is presented with an issue of a police shooting, one should ask themselves whether the perpetrator, for whatever they did, deserved to die for that. The answer is usually no. This was a dumb thing to do, but did he deserve to die for it? Probably not.

That's not what the police are there to determine. They're there to determine how to keep the public safe.

In this case, they had a clear view of him pointing what looked very much like a gun at passer-bys.

[Progressive Pessimist]

When one is presented with an issue of a police shooting, one should ask themselves whether the perpetrator, for whatever they did, deserved to die for that. The answer is usually no. This was a dumb thing to do, but did he deserve to die for it? Probably not.

That's not what the police are there to determine. They're there to determine how to keep the public safe.

In this case, they had a clear view of him pointing what looked very much like a gun at passer-bys.

But it wasn't an actual gun. Shouldn't they determine that before doing something as egregious as shooting him to death? Arrest him if you need to. That's fine. An officer should take whatever precautions they need to but it still seems impulsive to shoot him to death.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

When one is presented with an issue of a police shooting, one should ask themselves whether the perpetrator, for whatever they did, deserved to die for that. The answer is usually no. This was a dumb thing to do, but did he deserve to die for it? Probably not.

That's not what the police are there to determine. They're there to determine how to keep the public safe.

In this case, they had a clear view of him pointing what looked very much like a gun at passer-bys.

But it wasn't an actual gun. Shouldn't they determine that before doing something as egregious as shooting him to death? Arrest him if you need to. That's fine. An officer should take whatever precautions they need to but it still seems impulsive to shoot him to death.

Ideally, they would have time to determine that, yeah. In this situation, though, they were called with a report of a gun and they rolled up to see him pointing that "gun" at the heads of passerbys. It's an undeniably tragic situation, yes, but one where waiting could have resulted in many more dead people.

[Hammy]

Another instance that shows live ammunition should be removed from street cops' hands.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Well, from what we know about him, he wasn’t in his right mind; however, based on the images, it looks fairly apparent that the way in which he held and pointed the showerhead looked like—and was intended to look like—a gun.

And yet whites with actual loaded guns are being arrested without harm, a cop should be able to tell the difference between a gun and a pipe, period. Funny how this man likely had a mental illness but his complexion doesn't afford him that excuse.

^^^^ This.

I think a major part of what we're learning with all these shootings is that police need a lot more training if we're going to have them be the first responders to psychotic breaks. As someone who has had relatives have psychotic breaks, the cops are who you're told to call when it's dangerous to you or others, and if it's not dangerous to you or others, there's not anything anyone can do unless you can convince them to get help voluntarily. Sorry, slight rant.

Anyway, the police need more training if we're going to continue to put them in these positions of quasi-counselors, etc. There's been a study that shows in stressful situations, people fall back on their training, which is generally good. However, most police have the most training in how to shoot someone, not how to deal with mental health issues or how to deescalate properly. Then, of course, there is also the race issue which is extremely problematic, and while no amount of training can solve racism, I think it might help, especially if coupled with much more vigorous deescalation training.

Tl;dr: Training isn't a panacea, but police need to have significantly more training in deescalation techniques, mental health, and various other issues before we send them out. It won't solve these issues, but it would be a start.

Supreme Court has ruled on a number of occasions that police have no legal duty to protect individuals; they only need to protect the public at large. (See Warren v. District of Columbia)

If the court punishes cops behavior for abuses, more of them will be afraid to act abusively. The root of the problem starts from our government and legal system that give cops too much authority. Training doesn't really mean a whole lot if they don't want to take even an ounce of risk. Thus it becomes citizens' duty to fully obey or potentially die. Unfortunately, that's the way courts seem to view it.

Warren wasn’t a Supreme Court case.