Vice, Virtue, and Independence (A Different Path, Chapter 2)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 01, 2024, 09:03:05 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion
  Election What-ifs? (Moderator: Dereich)
  Vice, Virtue, and Independence (A Different Path, Chapter 2)
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11 ... 13
Author Topic: Vice, Virtue, and Independence (A Different Path, Chapter 2)  (Read 38021 times)
NewYorkExpress
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,817
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #125 on: May 18, 2018, 11:10:13 PM »

"President-elect Barry Goldwater" is such a weird phrase to type!

P.S. @MillMod: I made you wait 25 hours, not 24, per your request. Wink

P.P.S.: IDK how I did it but I think this election was actually at least as crazy as IRL '68, if not slightly worse.

(>_>)

Still surprised by this result:

First because historically popular Presidents (like JFK is IRL and like he is in this TL) almost always get their successor elected (Truman elected on the back of FDR, LBJ elected on the back of JFK and Bush elected on the back of Reagan)... and in this case I’d consider LBJ the successor despite Wallace being the Dem nominee.

Secondly, repeating what I’ve said before: Wouldn’t Smathers be considered more acceptable to voters than Wallace or Goldwater?
60% of voters voted for Democrats following a highly successful Democratic presidency, proving your point without contesting these results.

The situation with the independent Democrats is difficult. LBJ could very well survive, but he could also die before all the votes are counted. So you can't assume Smathers would be the one assuming office. Also, Smathers wasn't some great progressive; he was a moderate at best. Pretty sure he called Claude Pepper a communist for supporting civil rights and free healthcare in '50. Not exactly the dream candidate for voters looking for the continuation of the Kennedy Administration, which had just passed legislation on civil rights and free healthcare (for the poor and elderly). Not to mention that he was something of a segregationist (out of political necessity than actual racism, I'd like to think, but the effect on wider society was the same regardless of motivation).

ITTL, Progressives did not love Johnson, but they didn't even like Smathers. They hated Goldwater and Wallace almost equally (probably Wallace a little more, depending on how strongly they feel about civil rights). Many decided to stay home, while most of the rest voted for LBJ out of protest.

The disparity between the 31% Goldwater polled at on Nov. 1st and the 41% he ended up getting was due to a reduced electorate size, not an increase in support.

I think it's safe to say either RFK or Teddy will be the Democratic nominee in 1972.

The question is will they win?
Sure, that's a safe bet.

One could argue that Goldwater is more likely to win reelection than election in the first place, since so much of the argument against him was because of what he might do. If he doesn't do those things (e.g. cause nuclear Armageddon) then I think he certainly stands a decent chance. You'll just have to see what happens in his administration.

of course I already know who wins in '72 I'm just being coy

Goldwater is also exactly the kind of person who would escalate things in Vietnam (much like LBJ did IRL), so that has to be taken into account when discussing his re-election chances. Even if he doesn't start a war with the Soviet Union, he might start one with China, which would be a disaster given China's enormous manpower reserves. And of course, there are landmines like Israel and the rest of the Middle East, India and Pakistan and Cuba, none of which a militant foreign policy like Goldwater's is equipped to handle.

I'd expect him to get blown out in 1972, especially if RFK or Teddy is the nominee, and likely so even if we get a weaker (in my opinion) nominee like Ed Muskie or Eugene McCarthy, Democrats should win handily.
Logged
MillennialModerate
MillennialMAModerate
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,022
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #126 on: May 19, 2018, 04:15:52 AM »

"President-elect Barry Goldwater" is such a weird phrase to type!

P.S. @MillMod: I made you wait 25 hours, not 24, per your request. Wink

P.P.S.: IDK how I did it but I think this election was actually at least as crazy as IRL '68, if not slightly worse.

(>_>)

Still surprised by this result:

First because historically popular Presidents (like JFK is IRL and like he is in this TL) almost always get their successor elected (Truman elected on the back of FDR, LBJ elected on the back of JFK and Bush elected on the back of Reagan)... and in this case I’d consider LBJ the successor despite Wallace being the Dem nominee.

Secondly, repeating what I’ve said before: Wouldn’t Smathers be considered more acceptable to voters than Wallace or Goldwater?
60% of voters voted for Democrats following a highly successful Democratic presidency, proving your point without contesting these results.

The situation with the independent Democrats is difficult. LBJ could very well survive, but he could also die before all the votes are counted. So you can't assume Smathers would be the one assuming office. Also, Smathers wasn't some great progressive; he was a moderate at best. Pretty sure he called Claude Pepper a communist for supporting civil rights and free healthcare in '50. Not exactly the dream candidate for voters looking for the continuation of the Kennedy Administration, which had just passed legislation on civil rights and free healthcare (for the poor and elderly). Not to mention that he was something of a segregationist (out of political necessity than actual racism, I'd like to think, but the effect on wider society was the same regardless of motivation).

ITTL, Progressives did not love Johnson, but they didn't even like Smathers. They hated Goldwater and Wallace almost equally (probably Wallace a little more, depending on how strongly they feel about civil rights). Many decided to stay home, while most of the rest voted for LBJ out of protest.

The disparity between the 31% Goldwater polled at on Nov. 1st and the 41% he ended up getting was due to a reduced electorate size, not an increase in support.

I think it's safe to say either RFK or Teddy will be the Democratic nominee in 1972.

The question is will they win?
Sure, that's a safe bet.

One could argue that Goldwater is more likely to win reelection than election in the first place, since so much of the argument against him was because of what he might do. If he doesn't do those things (e.g. cause nuclear Armageddon) then I think he certainly stands a decent chance. You'll just have to see what happens in his administration.

of course I already know who wins in '72 I'm just being coy

Goldwater is also exactly the kind of person who would escalate things in Vietnam (much like LBJ did IRL), so that has to be taken into account when discussing his re-election chances. Even if he doesn't start a war with the Soviet Union, he might start one with China, which would be a disaster given China's enormous manpower reserves. And of course, there are landmines like Israel and the rest of the Middle East, India and Pakistan and Cuba, none of which a militant foreign policy like Goldwater's is equipped to handle.

I'd expect him to get blown out in 1972, especially if RFK or Teddy is the nominee, and likely so even if we get a weaker (in my opinion) nominee like Ed Muskie or Eugene McCarthy, Democrats should win handily.

In a way this is similar to the situation we are currently in, where the minute Trump was elected you knew it was unlikely he’d get re-elected - Where in this TL it’s even more unlikely Goldwater gets re-elected even if he has a half decent first term, ESPECIALLY cause the Democratic bench is SO Astro gets: RFK, Teddy, Muskie...
Logged
Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,284
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.13, S: -6.53

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #127 on: May 19, 2018, 12:50:55 PM »
« Edited: May 20, 2018, 09:53:54 AM by JFK »

Relax, guys, I was probably just playing devil's advocate regarding a two-term Goldwater presidency... right? Wink


November 6, 1968
Nelson



Damn. Barry Goldwater is President-elect…

All that work Nelson had done to attempt to push the Republicans in a more moderate direction was, it seemed, pretty much completely undone. Social welfare programs were out; tax cuts were in. Goodbye, looking to the future; hello, bringing back the past. Working to contain Communism while making sure we didn’t blast each other to oblivion was the Rockefeller way, while an all-out assault on Communists seemed to be the Goldwater doctrine.

And Jesus Christ, if he gives LeMay any power… God help us all…

Yes, if there was a phrase Nelson felt best summed up his feelings, it was that one.

God help us all.


November 6, 1968
Jack



Damn. Barry Goldwater is President-elect…

Jack wasn’t happy at all with how this election had turned out. Udall and McGovern had been his best bets for preserving his legacy, or possibly George Romney. All three had failed at the conventions. Then, Johnson looked like the best option, as much as Jack had come to hate him. Turns out, Lyndon couldn’t overcome his moral failings and seemed to have drank and smoked himself close to death, discouraging an entire generation of Democrats from even showing up to the polls.

Jack metaphorically kicked himself for not endorsing someone. He’d wanted to remain above the fray, and now look how it’d turned out.

Goldwater was his friend, of course, but that didn’t mean Goldwater wasn’t going to dismantle everything he had been so successful in putting in place. Or that he wouldn’t try, at least. Social security increases? Probably going to be reversed. Civil rights would be stalled, at least on the federal level. Conservatives would surely come for Medicare and Medicaid too.

And then there was the Democratic party. The entire point of Kennedy hobbling the Wallace campaign by forcing Mahoney on the ticket was so that social conservatism in general and racist demagoguery in particular would be, hopefully, killed off in the Democratic party. Now that Wallace had been thoroughly crushed by Barry Goldwater of all people, and now that he was leaving office, Jack could focus on helping to rebuild the party into something more progressive. He couldn’t force Southerners to accept civil rights, but he could at least transform the national party, and ensure the next President was a progressive Democrat.

“Mrs. Lincoln, get me McGovern,” he barked at Evelyn Lincoln, his secretary.
Logged
MillennialModerate
MillennialMAModerate
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,022
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #128 on: May 20, 2018, 05:51:32 AM »

(If you want to edit this minor detail in, his secretary’s name is Evelyn Lincoln. He always referred to her as Mrs Lincoln)

Wait, McGovern?!?! He will get beat by even Goldwater!

Please tell me RFK ran for something and won?!
Logged
America Needs R'hllor
Parrotguy
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,441
Israel


Political Matrix
E: -4.13, S: -3.48

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #129 on: May 20, 2018, 06:58:21 AM »

Wait, McGovern?!?! He will get beat by even Goldwater!

We don't know why JFK is calling him, do we? Tongue Can't wait for more, this is a really good story.
Logged
Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,284
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.13, S: -6.53

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #130 on: May 20, 2018, 09:53:21 AM »
« Edited: May 20, 2018, 12:50:51 PM by JFK »

(If you want to edit this minor detail in, his secretary’s name is Evelyn Lincoln. He always referred to her as Mrs Lincoln)
Thank you. That's something that I am aware of but her name slipped my mind, and I'm busy this weekend so I was in a rush to get that update out. I'll edit. Smiley

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.
McGovern was tasked with heading the semi-eponymous McGovern-Fraser commission to reform the Democratic party primary process, just like IRL. It started slightly sooner in this timeline since Wallace was such an obviously terrible loser of a candidate. Jack will get involved in the process.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.
Sure Jan. I'm keeping the '72 race under wraps but let's play with this thought experiment of McGovern v. Goldwater in '72.

Two variables you aren't aware of:
1) how the Goldwater administration goes
2) I'll have the 1968 final results, including the Senate, up in the next few days, but one I'll let you know now: Eagleton loses his race. So even if McGovern wins the nomination, the Eagleton affair has a 0% chance of happening, along with the "acid, amnesty and abortion" comment.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.
Not quite yet. You'll see soon.
Logged
Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,284
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.13, S: -6.53

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #131 on: May 20, 2018, 11:41:06 AM »

Also thanks for the well wishes re: my health, and the complements and the feedback
Logged
Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,284
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.13, S: -6.53

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #132 on: May 21, 2018, 03:02:07 PM »

November 6, 1968
Barry



Damn. I’m the President-elect.

“...the movement we’ve built up across this country in the past few years has won! Americans will wake up this morning and realize that they are going to have a conservative President in the White House next January, one who cares about the common man…”

Barry had never had all that much hope, not after Johnson jumped into the race. But then, Lyndon’s vices had apparently caught up to him. What Barry did have was a vision, an agenda, and a team of people to help him achieve it. Oh, and now, a number of new conservatives in the House and Senate.

“...together, we’ll keep America strong on the world stage and reverse the Communist appeasement of the previous Administration. And, most of all, we’ll preserve the American way into the 1970’s. We won’t let the northeastern establishment dictate the lives of middle America…”

Yes, this would be a good four years. Or, better yet, a good eight years. He’d bring America back to the ‘50’s after its dangerous experimentation with an unpleasant future, one where the US and the communists were friends instead of sworn enemies, where federal overreach stripped away individual rights, and where the President supported American cities burning to the ground while doing nothing (Constitutional) to address the causes of the riots.

Yes, Barry was primed to take America down a different path.


November 6, 1968
George



George Wallace had lost, and pretty badly at that. Nevertheless, he refused to give a traditional concession speech. Reporters caught up to him outside his campaign headquarters in Birmingham, and George took a few questions.

“Governor Wallace, have you called President-elect Goldwater to congratulate him on his victory?”

“No, I have not, and I will not until every vote has been counted and the election’s results have been certified.”

“But sir, every state has been called…”

“Yes, I am aware of that, but my campaign has always been about the everyday American, and until all their votes are counted I’m not conceding. A number of states, like New York, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Ohio, were very close, and if there was any voter fraud or mistakes made in the reporting I think the American people have a right to know.”

“So will you be filing for recounts in those states?”

“Yes, I believe I will be…”
Logged
NewYorkExpress
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,817
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #133 on: May 21, 2018, 03:23:53 PM »

I should've known Wallace would be a sore loser.
Logged
Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,284
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.13, S: -6.53

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #134 on: May 22, 2018, 04:12:49 PM »
« Edited: December 19, 2018, 12:14:17 AM by Cold War Liberal »

1968 United States Elections
Final Results




Senator Barry Goldwater/Governor Ronald Reagan: 27,778,054, 41.02%, 354 Electoral Votes
Fmr. Governor George Wallace/Governor George Mahoney: 27,032,224, 39.92%, 156 Electoral Votes
Governor Lyndon B. Johnson/Senator George Smathers: 12,658,590, 18.70%, 28 Electoral Votes
Other candidates: 243,258, 0.36%

Total: 67,712,126
Turnout: 56.29% ( 0.51%)

Closest states
Michigan
George Wallace: 1,238,687
Barry Goldwater: 1,158,351
Lyndon Johnson: 660,966

New York
Barry Goldwater: 2,461,043
George Wallace: 2,401,881
Lyndon Johnson: 1,366,726

Virginia
Barry Goldwater: 449,013
Lyndon Johnson: 427,300
George Wallace: 359,216

West Virginia
George Wallace: 267,094
Barry Goldwater: 263,888
Lyndon Johnson: 142,665


House of Representatives


Democrats: 263 ( 22)
Republicans: 172 ( 22)

House Speaker: John William McCormack
Majority Leader: Carl Albert
Majority Whip: Hale Boggs* Tip O'Neill

*defeated by David C. Treen (R)

Minority Leader: Gerald Ford
Minority Whip: Leslie Arends


Senate


Democrats: 52 ( 6)
Republicans: 48 ( 6)

President of the Senate: Ronald Reagan
President pro tempore: Richard Russell, Jr.

Majority Leader: Mike Mansfield
Majority Whip: Hubert Humphrey

Minority Leader: Everett Dirksen
Minority Whip: Robert Taft, Jr.

Individual Race Results
(asterisk = incumbent)

Alabama
James Allen: 70.04%
Perry Hooper, Jr.: 22.11%
Robert Schwenn: 7.85%

Alaska
Mike Gravel: 59.78%
Elmer Rasmuson: 40.22%

Arizona
Paul Fannin: 59.36% [REPUBLICAN GAIN]
Roy Elson: 40.64%

Arkansas
J. William Fulbright*: 59.14%
Charles Bernard: 40.86%

California
Charlton Heston: 50.78%
Alan Cranston: 49.22%

Colorado
Peter Dominick*: 58.55%
Stephen Nichols: 41.45%

Connecticut
Abraham Ribicoff*: 55.77%
Edwin H. May, Jr.: 44.23%

Florida
LeRoy Collins: 50.35%
Edward Gurney: 49.65%

Georgia
Herman Talmadge*: 78.95%
Earl Patton: 21.05%

Hawaii
Daniel Inouye*: 84.01%
Wayne Thiessen: 14.72%

Idaho
Frank Church*: 60.00%
George Hansen: 39.52%

Illinois
Everett Dirksen*: 55.71%
William G. Clark: 43.81%

Indiana
William Ruckelshaus: 50.26% [REPUBLICAN GAIN]
Birch Bayh*: 49.15%

Iowa
David Stanley: 50.51%
Harold Hughes: 49.26%

Kansas
Bob Dole: 66.60%
William Robinson: 32.98%

Kentucky
Katherine Peden: 50.72% [DEMOCRATIC GAIN]
Marlow Cook: 49.28%

Louisiana
Russell Long*: unopposed

Maryland
Spiro Agnew: 52.77% [REPUBLICAN GAIN]
Daniel Brewster*: 46.64%

Missouri
Thomas Curtis: 50.74% [REPUBLICAN GAIN]
Thomas Eagleton: 49.03%

Nevada
Alan Bible*: 51.23%
Edward Fike: 48.14%

New Hampshire
Norris Cotton*: 61.96%
John W. King: 38.04%

New York
Jacob Javits*: 42.17%
Paul O’Dwyer: 31.96%
James L. Buckley: 24.72%

North Carolina
Sam Ervin*: 62.47%
Robert Somers: 37.53%

North Dakota
Milton Young*: 65.19%
Herschel Lashkowitz: 31.64%

Ohio
John Ashbrook: 50.84% [REPUBLICAN GAIN]
John J. Gilligan: 49.10%

Oklahoma
Henry Bellmon: 54.04% [REPUBLICAN GAIN]
Mike Monroney*: 45.96%

Oregon
Wayne Morse*: 51.26
Bob Packwood: 48.74%

Pennsylvania
Richard Schweiker: 50.36% [REPUBLICAN GAIN]
Joseph Clark*: 47.64%

South Carolina
Marshall Parker*: 53.70%
Ernest Hollings: 46.30%

South Dakota
George McGovern*: 53.88%
Archie Gubbrud: 45.63%

Utah
Wallace Bennett*: 52.90%
Milton Wellenmann: 46.32%

Vermont
George Aiken*: unopposed

Washington
Warren Magnuson*: 62.35%
Jack Metcalf: 37.42%

Wisconsin
Gaylord Nelson*: 59.28%
Jerris Leonard: 40.41%


Governor’s Mansions


Individual Race Results
(asterisk = incumbent)

Arizona
Jack Williams*: 62.84%
Samuel Goddard, Jr.: 36.43%

Arkansas
Winthrop Rockefeller*: 50.94%
Marion Crank: 48.67%

Delaware
David Buckson*: 50.34%
Charles Terry, Jr.: 49.66%

Illinois
Richard Ogilvie: 53.87% [REPUBLICAN GAIN]
Otto Kerner, Jr.*: 46.51%

Indiana
Edgar Whitcomb: 54.39% [REPUBLICAN GAIN]
Robert Rock: 44.74%

Iowa
Robert Ray: 55.29% [REPUBLICAN GAIN]
Paul Franzenburg: 43.67%

Kansas
Robert Docking*: 50.48%
Rick Harman: 48.92%

Missouri
Warren Hearnes*: 59.24%
Lawrence Roos: 40.76%

Montana
Roland Renne*: 50.16%
Forrest Anderson: 44.82%
Wayne Montgomery: 5.02%

New Hampshire
Walter Peterson, Jr.: 55.52%
Emile Bussiere: 44.46%

New Mexico
David Cargo*: 51.47%
Fabian Chavez, Jr.: 47.98%

North Carolina
Robert Scott: 52.57%
James Gardner: 47.43%

North Dakota
William Guy*: 52.70%
Robert P. McCarney: 45.62%

Rhode Island
John Chafee*: 55.17%
Frank Licht: 44.83%

South Dakota
Frank Farrar: 58.39%
Robert Chamberlin: 41.61%

Texas
John Connally: 54.67%
Paul Eggers: 45.33%

Utah
Calvin Rampton*: 65.91%
Carl Buehner: 34.09%

Vermont
Deane Davis: 56.29% [REPUBLICAN GAIN]
John Daley: 43.48%

Washington
Daniel Evans*: 55.12%
John O’Connell: 42.55%

West Virginia
Arch Moore, Jr.: 51.17% [REPUBLICAN GAIN]
James Sprouse: 48.83%

Wisconsin
Warren Knowles*: 53.45%
Bronson La Follette: 45.06%
Logged
MillennialModerate
MillennialMAModerate
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,022
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #135 on: May 22, 2018, 07:29:06 PM »

Really confused by RFK not running for office.

Seems unlike the Kennedy’s
Logged
Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,284
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.13, S: -6.53

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #136 on: May 22, 2018, 08:46:30 PM »

Really confused by RFK not running for office.

Seems unlike the Kennedy’s
Wouldn't that be a violation of the 1939 Hatch Act? I remember Sec. Castro caught heat for simply endorsing Clinton in '16, I can't imagine the ramifications of a serving cabinet member running for office himself.

I don't see RFK resigning from the administration. I have plans for RFK, be patient.
Logged
Edgeofnight
EdgeofNight
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 447


Political Matrix
E: -5.03, S: -6.09

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #137 on: May 22, 2018, 11:40:57 PM »

Really confused by RFK not running for office.

Seems unlike the Kennedy’s
Wouldn't that be a violation of the 1939 Hatch Act? I remember Sec. Castro caught heat for simply endorsing Clinton in '16, I can't imagine the ramifications of a serving cabinet member running for office himself.

I don't see RFK resigning from the administration. I have plans for RFK, be patient.

Yes it would be.
Logged
MillennialModerate
MillennialMAModerate
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,022
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #138 on: May 23, 2018, 02:49:50 AM »

Really confused by RFK not running for office.

Seems unlike the Kennedy’s
Wouldn't that be a violation of the 1939 Hatch Act? I remember Sec. Castro caught heat for simply endorsing Clinton in '16, I can't imagine the ramifications of a serving cabinet member running for office himself.

I don't see RFK resigning from the administration. I have plans for RFK, be patient.

Didn’t even think of that! Good call.

Logged
NewYorkExpress
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,817
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #139 on: May 23, 2018, 04:31:00 PM »

I wonder if Agnew is going to run for President in 1976.

There's also Ashbrook (who you've forshadowed as a potential contender), Schweiker, Dole, Dirksen and Church all could run in the not too distant future.
Logged
Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,284
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.13, S: -6.53

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #140 on: May 24, 2018, 12:14:00 AM »

I wonder if Agnew is going to run for President in 1976.

There's also Ashbrook (who you've forshadowed as a potential contender), Schweiker, Dole, Dirksen and Church all could run in the not too distant future.
I'm not giving anything away except that Dirksen will die at the same time as IRL (September of '69). All of these except him are possible and plausible contenders, along with several elected in '68 (e.g. Collins, McGovern, Packwood, Connally, Ervin, maybe even Javits, Renne, or Peden). Throw in Howard Baker, the Kennedys, Scoop Jackson, Shirley Chisholm, John Glenn, Reagan (regardless of who wins in '72 he'll likely run in '76) and Hatfield and the 70's are sure to be an interesting time!

Also somewhat unrelated but worth mentioning, the butterfly effect will get stronger as time goes on.

And an idea I've been flirting with is attempting (and I do mean attempting, absolutely no promises with how crazy the past few months have been in my personal life + how busy I usually am) to reach 2020 ITTL by the time the RL 2020 election happens, then following that election in "real time." It'll be vastly different circumstances (also an open election) so it should be interesting to compare my TL to RL.
Logged
America Needs R'hllor
Parrotguy
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,441
Israel


Political Matrix
E: -4.13, S: -3.48

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #141 on: May 24, 2018, 12:21:38 AM »

I wonder if Agnew is going to run for President in 1976.

There's also Ashbrook (who you've forshadowed as a potential contender), Schweiker, Dole, Dirksen and Church all could run in the not too distant future.
I'm not giving anything away except that Dirksen will die at the same time as IRL (September of '69). All of these except him are possible and plausible contenders, along with several elected in '68 (e.g. Collins, McGovern, Packwood, Connally, Ervin, maybe even Javits, Renne, or Peden). Throw in Howard Baker, the Kennedys, Scoop Jackson, Shirley Chisholm, John Glenn, Reagan (regardless of who wins in '72 he'll likely run in '76) and Hatfield and the 70's are sure to be an interesting time!

Also somewhat unrelated but worth mentioning, the butterfly effect will get stronger as time goes on.

And an idea I've been flirting with is attempting (and I do mean attempting, absolutely no promises with how crazy the past few months have been in my personal life + how busy I usually am) to reach 2020 ITTL by the time the RL 2020 election happens, then following that election in "real time." It'll be vastly different circumstances (also an open election) so it should be interesting to compare my TL to RL.


That would be interesting, I appreciate your dedication and wish you luck in this Smiley

Also: GLENNNNNNN. I met him irl when he visited my school with Ambassador Shapiro so I'm biased, if he becomes President here I'll be so happy Tongue
Logged
Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,284
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.13, S: -6.53

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #142 on: May 24, 2018, 10:58:46 AM »

November 17, 1968
Wallace’s Recounts Fail



Shortly after this month’s election, Democratic Presidential nominee George Wallace, who lost the election to President-elect Barry Goldwater, filed for recounts in several close states. The states of New York and Pennsylvania outright rejected his requests, while Goldwater actually gained 12 votes in the Virginia recount, and the needle barely moved towards Wallace in the Ohio recount, which came nowhere close to closing the 2.8% gap between the candidates in the Buckeye state. These recount attempts have not delegitimized the election results; on the contrary, they have solidified Goldwater as the rightful President-elect.

Former Governor Wallace still has not conceded the race to Senator Goldwater.


November 23, 1968
Transition in Full Swing


President-elect Goldwater meets President Kennedy just days after winning the election

The transition from President Kennedy to President Goldwater is in full swing. While, ideologically, the President and President-elect are worlds apart, President Kennedy says that he “considers the President-elect a personal friend” and has offered any help he can give to making the transition as smooth as possible. Kennedy has also offered to be at the new President’s side for advice, should he need or want it. At their meeting on November 12, Goldwater and Kennedy were amicable.

President-elect Goldwater has started to name people to his Cabinet as well. The biggest nominee so far is the choice of foreign policy adviser Henry Kissinger to the post of Secretary of State. He has also appointed former Idaho Governor Robert Smylie to be the next Interior Secretary. Nebraska Sen. Carl Curtis is his choice for Secretary of Agriculture. Somewhat surprising was Goldwater’s choice to keep incumbent Labor Secretary Daniel Patrick Moynihan at his current post.

The incoming President has decided to take a stand against the very existence of a Cabinet position. “A major goal of my administration is to decrease the size, scope, and power of the federal government,” the President-elect said in a press conference today, “and to start off on the right foot, I am calling on the 91st Congress to pass a bill removing the position of Postmaster General from the Cabinet of the United States.” Congress seems to be receptive to this idea, even if it isn’t actually removing a federal office.


December 16, 1968
BREAKING: Electoral College Meets, Officially Elects Goldwater
December 29, 1968
LeMay Nominated to Defense; Miller to Justice



Upon coming back to Washington after a short Christmas vacation in Arizona with his family, President-elect Goldwater has named several more people to his Cabinet, in hopes that they will be confirmed prior to his swearing-in.

The first is the shocking announcement that Ret. Gen. Curtis LeMay will be the incoming Administration’s nominee for Secretary of Defense. LeMay has only been retired for four years, and so the Congress will need to pass a waiver to allow him to serve in the executive branch. Gen. LeMay will certainly come under Congressional scrutiny due to his opinions on bombing and nuclear weaponry.

Little-known New York Congressman William E. Miller will be the next Attorney General, if Goldwater has his way; Miller has a legal background, and prosecuted Nazis during the Nuremberg trials. Somewhat controversially, campaign aide and antitrust law scholar Robert Bork has been appointed Deputy Attorney General by Goldwater. Democrats in the Senate have already decried Bork’s lack of experience, but as it is a deputy position, the fight may not be as tough as it otherwise might have been. Additionally, Goldwater has appointed his friend and campaign legal adviser Phyllis Schlafly as Solicitor General, sparking more outcry due to her lack of experience. Schlafly is married to a lawyer and, according to Schlafly herself, “was inspired to get my law degree in 1966 due to the need to counteract the rise of judicial activists such as Chief Justice Marshall,” but has only tried a handful of cases in the past two years.

Less controversially, Motorola CEO Robert Galvin in Goldwater’s choice for Treasury Secretary, former Pennsylvania Governor Bill Scranton will head up the Department of Transportation, and Goldwater campaign manager Denison Kitchel will be the next White House Chief of Staff, as expected. Goldwater will not attempt to oust J. Edgar Hoover from the FBI, and will keep Richard Helms as Director of Central Intelligence.


Goldwater Cabinet
As of January 1, 1969


President: Barry Goldwater
Vice President: Ronald Reagan
-------
Secretary of State: Henry Kissinger
Secretary of the Treasury: Robert Galvin
Secretary of Defense: Curtis LeMay
Attorney General: William Miller
Postmaster General: vacant
Secretary of the Interior: Robert Smylie
Secretary of Agriculture: Carl Curtis
Secretary of Labor: Daniel Moynihan
Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare: vacant
Secretary of Housing: vacant
Secretary of Transportation: William Scranton
-------
FBI Director: J. Edgar Hoover
Director of Central Intelligence: Richard Helms
-------
Chief of Staff: Denison Kitchel
Press Secretary: vacant
Director of the Bureau of Budget: vacant
United States Trade Representative: vacant
United States Ambassador to the United Nations: vacant

(Italics = nominated, but not confirmed)
Logged
NewYorkExpress
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,817
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #143 on: May 25, 2018, 12:48:06 AM »

November 17, 1968
Wallace’s Recounts Fail



Shortly after this month’s election, Democratic Presidential nominee George Wallace, who lost the election to President-elect Barry Goldwater, filed for recounts in several close states. The states of New York and Pennsylvania outright rejected his requests, while Goldwater actually gained 12 votes in the Virginia recount, and the needle barely moved towards Wallace in the Ohio recount, which came nowhere close to closing the 2.8% gap between the candidates in the Buckeye state. These recount attempts have not delegitimized the election results; on the contrary, they have solidified Goldwater as the rightful President-elect.

Former Governor Wallace still has not conceded the race to Senator Goldwater.


November 23, 1968
Transition in Full Swing


President-elect Goldwater meets President Kennedy just days after winning the election

The transition from President Kennedy to President Goldwater is in full swing. While, ideologically, the President and President-elect are worlds apart, President Kennedy says that he “considers the President-elect a personal friend” and has offered any help he can give to making the transition as smooth as possible. Kennedy has also offered to be at the new President’s side for advice, should he need or want it. At their meeting on November 12, Goldwater and Kennedy were amicable.

President-elect Goldwater has started to name people to his Cabinet as well. The biggest nominee so far is the choice of foreign policy adviser Henry Kissinger to the post of Secretary of State. He has also appointed former Idaho Governor Robert Smylie to be the next Interior Secretary. Nebraska Sen. Carl Curtis is his choice for Secretary of Agriculture. Somewhat surprising was Goldwater’s choice to keep incumbent Labor Secretary Daniel Patrick Moynihan at his current post.

The incoming President has decided to take a stand against the very existence of a Cabinet position. “A major goal of my administration is to decrease the size, scope, and power of the federal government,” the President-elect said in a press conference today, “and to start off on the right foot, I am calling on the 91st Congress to pass a bill removing the position of Postmaster General from the Cabinet of the United States.” Congress seems to be receptive to this idea, even if it isn’t actually removing a federal office.


December 16, 1968
BREAKING: Electoral College Meets, Officially Elects Goldwater
December 29, 1968
LeMay Nominated to Defense; Miller to Justice



Upon coming back to Washington after a short Christmas vacation in Arizona with his family, President-elect Goldwater has named several more people to his Cabinet, in hopes that they will be confirmed prior to his swearing-in.

The first is the shocking announcement that Ret. Gen. Curtis LeMay will be the incoming Administration’s nominee for Secretary of Defense. LeMay has only been retired for four years, and so the Congress will need to pass a waiver to allow him to serve in the executive branch. Gen. LeMay will certainly come under Congressional scrutiny due to his opinions on bombing and nuclear weaponry.

Little-known New York Congressman William E. Miller will be the next Attorney General, if Goldwater has his way; Miller has a legal background, and prosecuted Nazis during the Nuremberg trials. Somewhat controversially, campaign aide and antitrust law scholar Robert Bork has been appointed Deputy Attorney General by Goldwater. Democrats in the Senate have already decried Bork’s lack of experience, but as it is a deputy position, the fight may not be as tough as it otherwise might have been. Additionally, Goldwater has appointed his friend and campaign legal adviser Phyllis Schlafly as Solicitor General, sparking more outcry due to her lack of experience. Schlafly is married to a lawyer and, according to Schlafly herself, “was inspired to get my law degree in 1966 due to the need to counteract the rise of judicial activists such as Chief Justice Marshall,” but has only tried a handful of cases in the past two years.

Less controversially, Motorola CEO Robert Galvin in Goldwater’s choice for Treasury Secretary, former Pennsylvania Governor Bill Scranton will head up the Department of Transportation, and Goldwater campaign manager Denison Kitchel will be the next White House Chief of Staff, as expected. Goldwater will not attempt to oust J. Edgar Hoover from the FBI, and will keep Richard Helms as Director of Central Intelligence.


Goldwater Cabinet
As of January 1, 1969


President: Barry Goldwater
Vice President: Ronald Reagan
-------
Secretary of State: Henry Kissinger
Secretary of the Treasury: Robert Galvin
Secretary of Defense: Curtis LeMay
Attorney General: William Miller
Postmaster General: vacant
Secretary of the Interior: Robert Smylie
Secretary of Agriculture: Carl Curtis
Secretary of Labor: Daniel Moynihan
Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare: vacant
Secretary of Housing: vacant
Secretary of Transportation: William Scranton
-------
FBI Director: J. Edgar Hoover
Director of Central Intelligence: Richard Helms
-------
Chief of Staff: Denison Kitchel
Press Secretary: vacant
Director of the Bureau of Budget: vacant
United States Trade Representative: vacant
United States Ambassador to the United Nations: vacant

(Italics = nominated, but not confirmed)

Unless Hoover has very good blackmail on Goldwater, he's the kind of guy who would let go of the long-time FBI director...as I'm pretty sure spying on citizens was not something Goldwater approved of (Nixon on the hand, would have kept him...and did IRL).
Logged
Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,284
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.13, S: -6.53

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #144 on: May 25, 2018, 12:59:23 AM »

Unless Hoover has very good blackmail on Goldwater, he's the kind of guy who would let go of the long-time FBI director...as I'm pretty sure spying on citizens was not something Goldwater approved of (Nixon on the hand, would have kept him...and did IRL).
That would be characteristic of Goldwater, and having him attempt to oust Hoover was something I considered, but I decided against it. He probably doesn't have anything on Goldwater, who, from everything I've ever read (which is a lot) is a decent man, but Hoover is an institution (a corrupt, terrible, racist institution) who literally created the FBI, so he wouldn't just go away without one hell of a fight. A protracted fight he'd probably lose is not something Goldwater wants when he has almost no mandate and remarkably little political capital. He still wants to make his mark and show that he's there to shake things up, hence the postmaster general thing.

TL;DR: he's picking and choosing his battles.
Logged
Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,284
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.13, S: -6.53

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #145 on: May 28, 2018, 10:23:56 AM »

January 1, 1969
In Shocking Move, Williams Appoints Himself to Goldwater’s Seat



President-elect Barry Goldwater resigned from his Senate seat three weeks ago, allowing Arizona Governor Jack Williams to appoint a successor to the incoming President. In an unexpected twist, Governor Williams has appointed himself to be the junior Senator from Arizona. What makes this decision even more interesting is that it makes Arizona Secretary of State Wesley Bolin, a Democrat, the new Governor, even though Williams is a Republican. Bolin has served as Secretary of State since 1949, and is widely respected among both Democrats and Republicans in the state, a fact Williams cited in his speech announcing Goldwater’s replacement.

Goldwater was up for reelection in 1970, though now Williams will appear on the ballot. Williams will be sworn in as the new Senator on the 3rd.


January 6, 1969
Postmaster-General Position Removed from Cabinet


The 91st Congress voted on a bill this morning, supported by President-elect Barry Goldwater, that will remove the position of United States Postmaster-General from the Cabinet. The bill passed both houses easily, and was signed by President Kennedy this afternoon in a gesture of good faith towards incoming President Goldwater.

This is mostly a symbolic move signifying Goldwater and his fellow conservatives’ dedication to streamlining and reducing the size of the federal government. However, the office of Postmaster-General will still exist outside the Cabinet.


January 7, 1969
BREAKING: LYNDON JOHNSON DIES AT AGE 60

Lyndon Baines Johnson
August 27, 1908 - January 7, 1969


January 10, 1969
Humphrey, McGovern, Kennedy Grill LeMay


Retired Air Force General Curtis LeMay appeared on Capitol Hill today for his confirmation hearing as President-elect Goldwater’s choice for Secretary of Defense. One of the more controversial nominees, Gen. LeMay faced fierce questioning from several prominent Senators. Senator Hubert Humphrey (D-MN) asked LeMay what his policy towards nuclear weapons would be should he be confirmed. LeMay, who has made questionable comments regarding atomic weaponry in the past, said that “it is the Goldwater Administration’s position that we cannot take any option off the table when waging war against Communists, and as a hopeful future member of the Goldwater Administration, that is also my position.” Senator George McGovern (D-SD) asked what his position on American involvement in Vietnam should be. LeMay stated that “the current Administration has been too complacent and has focused on appeasement rather than fighting for American interests; however, we should not make American boys fight in Asian boys’ wars if they don’t have to.” Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) asked LeMay whether he would submit to a mental evaluation before his confirmation vote. LeMay stated that he would do so if ordered to, but would find such an order “extremely demeaning.”

Despite the controversy, it is entirely possible that LeMay will be confirmed, if narrowly. He requires a waiver, which President Kennedy has not indicated he plans to approve, if it even leaves Congress. This, of course, could be temporary; if Congress approves the waiver, then Goldwater could simply sign it on his first day in office. Then, should LeMay be confirmed, the retired general would become the next Defense Secretary.
Logged
NewYorkExpress
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,817
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #146 on: May 28, 2018, 09:31:16 PM »

Something tells me LeMay is not going to win confirmation from the Senate.

Maybe John McCain Jr (Not the future? Arizona Senator, but his father, who was Commander in Chief of Pacific Command) will be the replacement nominee, as he also is strongly anti-communist, and somewhat more sane, so the Senate might be more willing to give him a waiver to serve as Secretary of Defense.

Also, if I remember correctly, there were several major foreign policy events IRL around this time (Charles De Gaulle's resignation as President of France, the election of Yasser Arafat as leader of the PLO, The "Football War" between Honduras and El Salvador and the ascension of Muammar Gaddafi to power in Libya). Also of note in 1969 is the Manson "family" murders, and it would be interesting to see you do something with that too.
Logged
Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,284
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.13, S: -6.53

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #147 on: May 28, 2018, 09:53:19 PM »

Something tells me LeMay is not going to win confirmation from the Senate.

Maybe John McCain Jr (Not the future? Arizona Senator, but his father, who was Commander in Chief of Pacific Command) will be the replacement nominee, as he also is strongly anti-communist, and somewhat more sane, so the Senate might be more willing to give him a waiver to serve as Secretary of Defense.

Also, if I remember correctly, there were several major foreign policy events IRL around this time (Charles De Gaulle's resignation as President of France, the election of Yasser Arafat as leader of the PLO, The "Football War" between Honduras and El Salvador and the ascension of Muammar Gaddafi to power in Libya). Also of note in 1969 is the Manson "family" murders, and it would be interesting to see you do something with that too.
I'm still trying to figure out just how much I want to explore world events. Right now it's not terribly different from the real world except where explicitly outlined previously (e.g. Vietnam) but it will get more different as time goes on. I will definitely do any events with relevance, and maybe causally mention a President met with a world leader who's different (later chapters might mention "French President Ségolène Royal," "Pope Callixtus IV," or "King Charles III" without going into detail about how they came to power due to it being largely irrelevant) but I don't want to get terribly outside the scope of this timeline since it focuses on the American Presidency and, specifically, elections to that office (of course).

If you at any point wonder about an event on the world stage that I didn't cover, I'd be happy to make up an answer on the spot! You know, stuff like "who's the leader of *x country*" or "how did *x event America had little to do with* go" etc.

I'll definitely cover important stuff though, and various Presidents will attempt to affect various other countries as time goes on, for better or for worse.
Logged
Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,284
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.13, S: -6.53

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #148 on: May 30, 2018, 11:08:40 AM »

January 20, 1969
Inauguration Day



A large crowd gathered on Inauguration Day 1969 to see the popular President Kennedy off, and the less popular President Goldwater sworn in. Several members of the incoming Cabinet had already been confirmed at that point, while the more controversial ones, particularly LeMay, had not. His waiver had narrowly passed Congress three days earlier, though Kennedy did not sign it. It was waiting for Goldwater’s signature once he was sworn in. But first, Vice President-elect Reagan was sworn in by outgoing Vice President Morris Udall. Then, just before noon, President Goldwater was sworn in by Chief Justice Thurgood Marshall, becoming the 36th President of the United States.

In his inaugural address, President Goldwater laid out a “return to Americanism,” renouncing the previous administration’s increased efforts at, as Goldwater called it not-so-subtly, “appeasement” with the Communists in the USSR and North Vietnam, promising a more aggressive foreign policy in general. On domestic issues, he told the “forgotten men and women” that they “are not forgotten any longer.” America was “open for business,” according to Goldwater, who promised that he would push for tax cuts in the next few months. Under the Goldwater Administration, government would be smaller, states would have more rights returned to them, and Communists around the world would cower.


Goldwater Cabinet
As of January 20, 1969



President: Barry Goldwater
Vice President: Ronald Reagan
-------
Secretary of State: Henry Kissinger
Secretary of the Treasury: Robert Galvin
Secretary of Defense: Curtis LeMay
Attorney General: William Miller
Postmaster General: vacant
Secretary of the Interior: Robert Smylie
Secretary of Agriculture: Carl Curtis
Secretary of Labor: Daniel Moynihan
Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare: Clare Luce
Secretary of Housing: George Romney
Secretary of Transportation: William Scranton
-------
FBI Director: J. Edgar Hoover
Director of Central Intelligence: Richard Helms
-------
Chief of Staff: Denison Kitchel
Press Secretary: Clarence Manion
Director of the Bureau of Budget: Robert Mayo
United States Trade Representative: Otto Passman
United States Ambassador to the United Nations: Walter Judd

(Italics = nominated, but not confirmed)


January 20, 1969
Gallup Poll

President Kennedy Approval Rating
Approve: 75%
Disapprove: 24%
Not sure: 1%
Didn’t answer: 0%

President Goldwater Approval Rating
Approve: 52%
Disapprove: 32%
Not sure: 15%
Didn’t answer: 1%
Logged
MillennialModerate
MillennialMAModerate
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,022
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #149 on: May 30, 2018, 09:04:55 PM »

This feels eriely familiar to 2016-2017
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11 ... 13  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.466 seconds with 10 queries.