Reparations for African Americans

[Frodo]

Agree or Disagree (and feel free to add commentary):

-Acknowledge the evil of slavery (our Original Sin), and apologize for the enslavement, terrorizing, and repression of African Americans.

-End the ongoing disinvestment into public education, and pressure the states to create dedicated funding specifically for public education that cannot be used for any other purpose (so that precludes charter schools and school vouchers), nor cut from the state budget for any reason, not even to balance the budget: educating children takes priority.  

-Give liberal arts (including history) equal standing with math and sciences.  This is sadly not the case today.  

-When teaching American history, don't whitewash it.  Trust the kids to handle what they are being taught.  If we are to prevent the horrors of the past (like the lynchings of African Americans, among other unsavory aspects of our history) from reappearing in our future, we must be educated about them.  In all its grim details.  

-Create a task force to investigate why minority schoolchildren consistently underperform their white (and Asian) counterparts academically, and why they are disciplined at higher rates.

-Remind law enforcement officers (again) that though they enforce the law, they are not above it.  End police brutality and militarization, and general abuse of authority.  Surely there are better ways to enforce the law in places like Ferguson or Baltimore than acting like you're an occupying army in Ramadi, Fallujah, or Kandahar.  This is the United States, not Iraq or Afghanistan.

-End the war on drugs, starting with reforming criminal justice (which historically has been used in the past as another way of enslaving black men) and overturning mandatory minimum sentencing.  Treat black drug addicts the same way white opium addicts are -as victims.  Radical thought, I know.    

-Full restoration and reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act via the undoing of the Supreme Court ruling Shelby vs. Holder.

-Launch an investigation on how to overcome the effects of past housing discrimination against racial minorities via red-lining and other measures.  The ultimate goal is for black and white homeowners to be roughly equal in wealth creation by the end of the century.  
-----------------------

That's just for starters.  Feel free to add more.  

[bagelman]

1. This has already been done. We teach it every year in school.
2. Shouldn't be handled as a racial issue, even though it is one.
3. Not a racial issue, and I strongly disagree. Claiming that a greater focus on math and science puts African Americans at a disadvantage is basically claiming that African Americans are less capable.
4. Agree, but there should be reasonable caveats. High school kids ought to learn about historical atrocities, maybe middle school kids as well, but younger kids only need to learn basic history.
5. This task force should be concerned with statistics, keeping the nature of each offense in mind. It should have no power to review punishments, rather it should inform higher agencies over whether or not there is racial bias and when it occurs. On what administrative level should such a task force be, state, federal, local?
6. Obviously I completely agree that police are not above the law, but empty gestures won't help either police brutality or inner city crime.
7. Agreed. Rich boys always seem to get away with everything. Screw rich boys.
8. While this is at least partially a racial issue, it should be handled by the legislature as a neutral civil rights issue. We should have a stable system of voting for centuries down the road.
9. I'm just skeptical about what solutions such an investigation could come up with. The only thing it could really do is stop redlining and housing discrimination that's still going on. Affirmative action won't work and it will be a good way to get old racial tensions flaring up again.

[Frodo]

When most people think of 'reparations', they think of a huge pot of money that everyone has to contribute to through taxes, and then given to one specific race (God knows how....) in an effort to make up for the wrongs done to them in the past and present.  That notion in my opinion is overly narrow, and inherently puts everyone off (including me) who isn't African American.  And I would argue self-defeating.  No one is going to support that.  I know I wouldn't.  

My object here is to challenge everyone to think in a broader sense.  A policy sense.  
-----------------------------

As to the education element, I meant it as one tying to the next, i.e. increasing funding for public education, so there would be more resources for each subject (including American history) being taught, as opposed to just focusing on a few key subjects that the feds and the states are testing for.  Which I presume is part of the reason why so few adult Americans even know the basics of their own history.

Which in turn leads to the question on how American history (once given the needed resources) should be taught.  

That, bagelman, is what I meant.  I did not mean to sound condescending, and it came as news to me that that was how you interpreted what I wrote.  

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

-Acknowledge the evil of slavery (our Original Sin), and apologize for the enslavement, terrorizing, and repression of African Americans.  Sure, acknowledge the evil of it of course.  I think apologies should be from specific institutions tied to the role of those institutions.

-End the ongoing disinvestment into public education, and pressure the states to create dedicated funding specifically for public education that cannot be used for any other purpose (so that precludes charter schools and school vouchers), nor cut from the state budget for any reason, not even to balance the budget: educating children takes priority.   This doesn't make sense to me as a solution. There's nothing inherently bad about charters or school vouchers, and budgets need flexibility. If you want to address historic disadvantages, your goal would be to reform funding and allocation of resources so that they are not so dependent on geography.

-Give liberal arts (including history) equal standing with math and sciences.  This is sadly not the case today.  I'm not really sure what this means. There needs to be improvement in all these areas. Usually it's music, art and outdoor education that are first on the chopping block, which is a shame.

-When teaching American history, don't whitewash it.  Trust the kids to handle what they are being taught.  If we are to prevent the horrors of the past (like the lynchings of African Americans, among other unsavory aspects of our history) from reappearing in our future, we must be educated about them.  In all its grim details.   There needs to be honesty for sure about the sins of the past. But there can be so much emphasis on the negative that anything good or any achievements or common heritage gets overlooked and I think that's dangerous. I don't think it helps anyone to look at the past and only see something to hate or escape from.

-Create a task force to investigate why minority schoolchildren are disciplined at higher rates than their white counterparts.  As part of a larger effort to address the issue of discipline in schools, yes. To some extent racial bias is something we just have to recognize exists and can't easily wish away as long as there are social disparities, so the question is how do we  set up environments where the relationships are more positive and discrimination does not go unchecked.

-Remind law enforcement officers (again) that though they enforce the law, they are not above it.  End police brutality and militarization, and general abuse of authority.  Surely there are better ways to enforce the law in places like Ferguson or Baltimore than acting like you're an occupying army in Ramadi, Fallujah, or Kandahar.  This is the United States, not Iraq or Afghanistan.  In fact the attitude really shouldn't be all that different between Ferguson and Fallujah when it comes to trying to engage constructively with the people in the place you are trying to keep order, and police might even learn something from the best counterinsurgency experts of the military. But there is definitely too much reliance on battlefield equipment in police forces, and in many, many cases too quick to engage with violent force.

-End the war on drugs, starting with reforming criminal justice (which historically has been used in the past as another way of enslaving black men) and overturning mandatory minimum sentencing.  Treat black drug addicts the same way white opium addicts are -as victims.  Radical thought, I know.  Agree with this, though the relation to slavery can be misleading as the problems blacks face in our criminal justice system do not appear to me to centered around their economic exploitation by that system.  

-Full restoration and reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act via the undoing of the Supreme Court ruling Shelby vs. Holder.  Shelby vs Holder was correct.  Congress needs to do its job to update the VRA to reflect current realities.  Attempts at the state level to restrict voting rights should be opposed.

-Launch an investigation on how to overcome the effects of past housing discrimination against racial minorities via red-lining and other measures.  The ultimate goal is for black and white homeowners to be roughly equal in wealth creation by the end of the century.  This is an important issue. How to deal with it is difficult, and I think here it needs to be addressed how things stand now rather than trying to somehow turn back time on past injustice. That means more affordable housing, zoning reforms, and addressing homelessness and evictions.  Make sure taxes do not disadvantage those with low household wealth.  Public transportation should focus on practical, cost-effective solutions to get people where they need to go in a timely and inexpensive manner rather than big, flashy projects. Licensure regulations and fees need to be reduced or eliminated to remove barriers to entry to small business creation.  Lots of other possibilities, and the so much of answer is going to come from leaders in black and minority/multi-ethnic communities who should be supported by others in their efforts.

[Storebought]

Any particular reason why the OP decided to post such a question here?

[Frodo]

Any particular reason why the OP decided to post such a question here?

Is there any particular reason why you feel I have to justify myself to you?

[Storebought]

OK, you're just-asking-questions (trolling) about black American reparations on a 90+% white forum with at least a half dozen prominent alt-right/soft-white-nationalist forum members on. Got it.

[Frodo]

OK, you're just-asking-questions (trolling) about black American reparations on a 90+% white forum with at least a half dozen prominent alt-right/soft-white-nationalist forum members on. Got it.

I am not trolling, but suit yourself. 

[Storebought]

OK, you're just-asking-questions (trolling) about black American reparations on a 90+% white forum with at least a half dozen prominent alt-right/soft-white-nationalist forum members on. Got it.

I am not trolling, but suit yourself. 

Slave reparations isn't even under discussion, not nationally, not in the court system, and not at the state level except for isolated state legislators in South Carolina and Missouri who are not supported by even other black lawmakers in their own states. It's not public policy and thus not actionable.

For years "debates" on slave reparations have been a tactic right-wing activists use on college campuses and newspaper Op-Eds to state in as many words that US blacks are in the condition they're in because of an innate inferiority. Dishonest arguments in favor reparations as a "slippery slope" are likewise common.

In any case, treating reparations as a kind of legal tort is dubious, and in any case not actionable since the damages cannot be proved.

[bagelman]

OK, you're just-asking-questions (trolling) about black American reparations on a 90+% white forum with at least a half dozen prominent alt-right/soft-white-nationalist forum members on. Got it.

Off the top of my head there are maybe two confirmed alt rightists here, one (EHarding) being banned. There's plenty of legitimate discussion to be had.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

OK, you're just-asking-questions (trolling) about black American reparations on a 90+% white forum with at least a half dozen prominent alt-right/soft-white-nationalist forum members on. Got it.

I am not trolling, but suit yourself. 

Slave reparations isn't even under discussion, not nationally, not in the court system, and not at the state level except for isolated state legislators in South Carolina and Missouri who are not supported by even other black lawmakers in their own states. It's not public policy and thus not actionable.

For years "debates" on slave reparations have been a tactic right-wing activists use on college campuses and newspaper Op-Eds to state in as many words that US blacks are in the condition they're in because of an innate inferiority. Dishonest arguments in favor reparations as a "slippery slope" are likewise common.

In any case, treating reparations as a kind of legal tort is dubious, and in any case not actionable since the damages cannot be proved.

Right it's not like there have been significant articles from mainstream national news magazines arguing the case for reparations.

[Storebought]

OK, you're just-asking-questions (trolling) about black American reparations on a 90+% white forum with at least a half dozen prominent alt-right/soft-white-nationalist forum members on. Got it.

I am not trolling, but suit yourself. 

Slave reparations isn't even under discussion, not nationally, not in the court system, and not at the state level except for isolated state legislators in South Carolina and Missouri who are not supported by even other black lawmakers in their own states. It's not public policy and thus not actionable.

For years "debates" on slave reparations have been a tactic right-wing activists use on college campuses and newspaper Op-Eds to state in as many words that US blacks are in the condition they're in because of an innate inferiority. Dishonest arguments in favor reparations as a "slippery slope" are likewise common.

In any case, treating reparations as a kind of legal tort is dubious, and in any case not actionable since the damages cannot be proved.

Right it's not like there have been significant articles from mainstream national news magazines arguing the case for reparations.

I've seen that very article you've linked, and read the wiki on the very subject, and several more recent ones in favor, before I posted my last reply, and I stand by it: Slavery reparations are a discussion on no one's table, not in legislatures, not in the executive office, nor the court system. Especially in a forum that lacks expertise in the matter (not just in demographics), reparation debates lead to a bunch of whataboutery that to me is just pure trolling.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

OK, you're just-asking-questions (trolling) about black American reparations on a 90+% white forum with at least a half dozen prominent alt-right/soft-white-nationalist forum members on. Got it.

I am not trolling, but suit yourself. 

Slave reparations isn't even under discussion, not nationally, not in the court system, and not at the state level except for isolated state legislators in South Carolina and Missouri who are not supported by even other black lawmakers in their own states. It's not public policy and thus not actionable.

For years "debates" on slave reparations have been a tactic right-wing activists use on college campuses and newspaper Op-Eds to state in as many words that US blacks are in the condition they're in because of an innate inferiority. Dishonest arguments in favor reparations as a "slippery slope" are likewise common.

In any case, treating reparations as a kind of legal tort is dubious, and in any case not actionable since the damages cannot be proved.

Right it's not like there have been significant articles from mainstream national news magazines arguing the case for reparations.

I've seen that very article you've linked, and read the wiki on the very subject, and several more recent ones in favor, before I posted my last reply, and I stand by it: Slavery reparations are a discussion on no one's table, not in legislatures, not in the executive office, nor the court system. Especially in a forum that lacks expertise in the matter (not just in demographics), reparation debates lead to a bunch of whataboutery that to me is just pure trolling.

Oh wow i hadn't realized you read the wiki.

[Frodo]

OK, you're just-asking-questions (trolling) about black American reparations on a 90+% white forum with at least a half dozen prominent alt-right/soft-white-nationalist forum members on. Got it.

I am not trolling, but suit yourself. 

Slave reparations isn't even under discussion, not nationally, not in the court system, and not at the state level except for isolated state legislators in South Carolina and Missouri who are not supported by even other black lawmakers in their own states. It's not public policy and thus not actionable.

For years "debates" on slave reparations have been a tactic right-wing activists use on college campuses and newspaper Op-Eds to state in as many words that US blacks are in the condition they're in because of an innate inferiority. Dishonest arguments in favor reparations as a "slippery slope" are likewise common.

In any case, treating reparations as a kind of legal tort is dubious, and in any case not actionable since the damages cannot be proved.

Right it's not like there have been significant articles from mainstream national news magazines arguing the case for reparations.

I've seen that very article you've linked, and read the wiki on the very subject, and several more recent ones in favor, before I posted my last reply, and I stand by it: Slavery reparations are a discussion on no one's table, not in legislatures, not in the executive office, nor the court system. Especially in a forum that lacks expertise in the matter (not just in demographics), reparation debates lead to a bunch of whataboutery that to me is just pure trolling.

I am not accustomed to having my motivations questioned, and being confused with the likes of Naso or Krazen, but the reason I created this thread was that it seemed appropriate after I posted about the opening of the lynching monument/museum in Montgomery, Alabama earlier the same day.  It was done in good faith.   

[Storebought]

OK, you're just-asking-questions (trolling) about black American reparations on a 90+% white forum with at least a half dozen prominent alt-right/soft-white-nationalist forum members on. Got it.

I am not trolling, but suit yourself. 

Slave reparations isn't even under discussion, not nationally, not in the court system, and not at the state level except for isolated state legislators in South Carolina and Missouri who are not supported by even other black lawmakers in their own states. It's not public policy and thus not actionable.

For years "debates" on slave reparations have been a tactic right-wing activists use on college campuses and newspaper Op-Eds to state in as many words that US blacks are in the condition they're in because of an innate inferiority. Dishonest arguments in favor reparations as a "slippery slope" are likewise common.

In any case, treating reparations as a kind of legal tort is dubious, and in any case not actionable since the damages cannot be proved.

Right it's not like there have been significant articles from mainstream national news magazines arguing the case for reparations.

I've seen that very article you've linked, and read the wiki on the very subject, and several more recent ones in favor, before I posted my last reply, and I stand by it: Slavery reparations are a discussion on no one's table, not in legislatures, not in the executive office, nor the court system. Especially in a forum that lacks expertise in the matter (not just in demographics), reparation debates lead to a bunch of whataboutery that to me is just pure trolling.

I am not accustomed to having my motivations questioned, and being confused with the likes of Naso or Krazen, but the reason I created this thread was that it seemed appropriate after I posted about the opening of the lynching monument/museum in Montgomery, Alabama earlier the same day.  It was done in good faith.   

Nor am I used to peremptory dismissals. But if that was the reason, then I agree with you. Still, I don't see how much light you can shed bringing it up here. I don't post much-if-any topics on civil rights or issues relating specifically to African-Americans because too often it is ignored, or it otherwise receives replies  ...

OK, you're just-asking-questions (trolling) about black American reparations on a 90+% white forum with at least a half dozen prominent alt-right/soft-white-nationalist forum members on. Got it.

I am not trolling, but suit yourself. 

Slave reparations isn't even under discussion, not nationally, not in the court system, and not at the state level except for isolated state legislators in South Carolina and Missouri who are not supported by even other black lawmakers in their own states. It's not public policy and thus not actionable.

For years "debates" on slave reparations have been a tactic right-wing activists use on college campuses and newspaper Op-Eds to state in as many words that US blacks are in the condition they're in because of an innate inferiority. Dishonest arguments in favor reparations as a "slippery slope" are likewise common.

In any case, treating reparations as a kind of legal tort is dubious, and in any case not actionable since the damages cannot be proved.

Right it's not like there have been significant articles from mainstream national news magazines arguing the case for reparations.

I've seen that very article you've linked, and read the wiki on the very subject, and several more recent ones in favor, before I posted my last reply, and I stand by it: Slavery reparations are a discussion on no one's table, not in legislatures, not in the executive office, nor the court system. Especially in a forum that lacks expertise in the matter (not just in demographics), reparation debates lead to a bunch of whataboutery that to me is just pure trolling.

Oh wow i hadn't realized you read the wiki.

... as stupid as this one.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Not as stupid as using the fact you read a wikipedia page as evidence people shouldn't be discussing an issue.

[Storebought]

Not as stupid as using the fact you read a wikipedia page as evidence people shouldn't be discussing an issue.

That was for your benefit, not mine. It would have saved you the effort post since it was all made before.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Not as stupid as using the fact you read a wikipedia page as evidence people shouldn't be discussing an issue.

That was for your benefit, not mine. It would have saved you the effort post since it was all made before.

ok then thanks for confirming you didn't read my post, I guess.

[Storebought]

On topics like abortion, the lack of significant female presence leads to discussions that spiral into inevitable cliche. On gun control threads, gun control opponents very frequently avail themselves to the argument that people lacking expertise on firearms cannot meaningfully participate in the discussion. I don't see how "discussions" like this are any different than "whitesplaining" and "mansplaining" in other contexts.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

On topics like abortion, the lack of significant female presence leads to discussions that spiral into inevitable cliche. On gun control threads, gun control opponents very frequently avail themselves to the argument that people lacking expertise on firearms cannot meaningfully participate in the discussion. I don't see how "discussions" like this are any different than "whitesplaining" and "mansplaining" in other contexts.

If people want to ban some kinds of guns they should be open to people who have more knowledge or experience pointing out an inaccurate statement about the guns in question. That's not the same as saying someone needs to have practical experience to talk about the issue.

[courts]

-End the ongoing disinvestment into public education, and pressure the states to create dedicated funding specifically for public education that cannot be used for any other purpose (so that precludes charter schools and school vouchers), nor cut from the state budget for any reason, not even to balance the budget: educating children takes priority

yeah i mean..maybe sending your kids to other districts or other public school choice would be ok.but i don't agree with privatizing stuff..and a lot of teachers are underpaid

[Oldiesfreak1854]

We've already made reparations for slavery.  The reparations program was called "the Civil War."

[Calthrina950]

We've already made reparations for slavery.  The reparations program was called "the Civil War."

This is a misguided viewpoint. Given that many of the economic and social inequalities which separate African Americans from White Americans are a direct result of the legacies of both slavery and Jim Crowism, there needs to be a serious conversation about the measures that could be taken to help redress these inequalities. The criminal justice system, the public education system, and housing are just some of the most pressing issues whose roots can be traced, generally, to the discriminatory policies of the past (and in many ways, of the present).

[Calthrina950]

Acknowledge the evil of slavery (our Original Sin), and apologize for the enslavement, terrorizing, and repression of African Americans.

I fully agree with this. A formal apology from the entire federal government, and from each of the state governments where slavery was legal, would be the first step in this process.

End the ongoing disinvestment into public education, and pressure the states to create dedicated funding specifically for public education that cannot be used for any other purpose (so that precludes charter schools and school vouchers), nor cut from the state budget for any reason, not even to balance the budget: educating children takes priority.  

While I do think that we need to reinvest in our schools (i.e. increase teacher pay, provide additional funding for new textbooks and for classroom materials, expand scholarships and tutoring programs for students), I also think that charter schools and school vouchers should not be eliminated entirely.

I think that more effort should be focused on giving parents in lower-income communities access to those opportunities, and that public schools be given greater flexibility to adopt the instructional methods found in the best-performing charter schools. This would require us moving away from the teaching to the test model.

Give liberal arts (including history) equal standing with math and sciences.  This is sadly not the case today.  

I definitely agree with this. History especially is very critical. Many people today know little about the leaders and the great movements of the past, and this lack of knowledge harms our efforts at future societal and political advancement.

When teaching American history, don't whitewash it.  Trust the kids to handle what they are being taught.  If we are to prevent the horrors of the past (like the lynchings of African Americans, among other unsavory aspects of our history) from reappearing in our future, we must be educated about them.  In all its grim details.  

Again, I agree. Our textbooks do not contain sufficient space on the horrors in past American history, and our classes do not spend enough time on these horrors.

Create a task force to investigate why minority schoolchildren are disciplined at higher rates than their white counterparts.

This should be done, but the task force should not be limited to investigating issues of school discipline alone. It should investigate why minority students, in all fields, whether academically or personally, lag behind their white counterparts, and propose solutions as to how those issues could be resolved.

Remind law enforcement officers (again) that though they enforce the law, they are not above it.  End police brutality and militarization, and general abuse of authority.  Surely there are better ways to enforce the law in places like Ferguson or Baltimore than acting like you're an occupying army in Ramadi, Fallujah, or Kandahar.  This is the United States, not Iraq or Afghanistan.

Fully agree with this. Greater efforts must be made to improve the relationship between law enforcement and the communities they police, as well as to combat racial bias and to maintain professional standards of conduct among the forces. I also think that the movement towards adoption of body cameras is a positive step. We also need to consider ways to make police testimony before juries, and jury instructions, fairer and more transparent.

End the war on drugs, starting with reforming criminal justice (which historically has been used in the past as another way of enslaving black men) and overturning mandatory minimum sentencing. Treat black drug addicts the same way white opium addicts are -as victims.  Radical thought, I know.    

I firmly agree with this. The approach that has been taken with the opioid epidemic should be adopted across the board, and more funding needs to be diverted to the mental health and rehabilitation systems. Education, counseling, and rehabilitation programs such as those being pursued at Cook County prisons (which were covered in a 60 Minutes segment months ago), should be broadened and strengthened.

Full restoration and reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act via the undoing of the Supreme Court ruling Shelby vs. Holder.

I agree with this, though Congress should make sure that the Voting Rights Act, as reauthorized, is applied most thoroughly to those places, in the present, where voter discrimination has been the most persistent, and those where it is the most obvious in modern times.

Launch an investigation on how to overcome the effects of past housing discrimination against racial minorities via red-lining and other measures.  The ultimate goal is for black and white homeowners to be roughly equal in wealth creation by the end of the century.

I agree. We need a more thorough enforcement of the Fair Housing Act, and additional measures should be considered to make housing loans more equitable for minority applicants. The investigation should also look into devising measures to hold insurance companies, banks, landlords, and real estate agents to account for any discriminatory practices in which they have engaged.

[Unapologetic Chinaperson]

OK, you're just-asking-questions (trolling) about black American reparations on a 90+% white forum with at least a half dozen prominent alt-right/soft-white-nationalist forum members on. Got it.

You are right that this forum is whiter than canned bread and that there are plenty of white nationalists whether they be alt-right or European identitarians or what not. But if you don't talk about this stuff, then guess what, you conceded the debate to the white nationalists. Frodo, on a 90% white and 90% male forum, is doing their best to fight back against the white male echo chamber.