Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'

[Filuwaúrdjan]

While I guess not all mainline Christians are liberal,

No where near all

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That would depend how "mainline" is defined and how "liberal" is defined

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Most religious groups don't believe that y'know...

[12th Doctor]

Since a reviival of religious interest during "lean times" is a documented trend throughout history (unless it is institutionally prevented) I find that this study seems to be determined to put the horse before the cart.

[MODU]

When did I say I was a "non-religious type"?

Never said you did.  It was my own thought.

[Blue Rectangle]

Since a reviival of religious interest during "lean times" is a documented trend throughout history (unless it is institutionally prevented) I find that this study seems to be determined to put the horse before the cart.

Yes, they have the causality backwards.  The resurgence of religion in the U.S. over the past few decades has been driven largely by the view that society has been going to Hell in a handbasket ever since the '60s.

[Gabu]

Worse off societies 'have God on their side'

High murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, can cause religious belief, according to research published today.

That would require a corresponding increase on religious belief along with economic trouble, which I believe generally is not all that common.  I don't  know if I've seen any studies on that, though.

He wasn't actually asserting what he said; his comment, which I think is a valid one, is that the fact that these two go together may well imply that bad living conditions foster religious belief, instead of the other way around, and that we really cannot know what caused what just with this data alone.

Well, I'd hardly call the U.S. a place with bad living conditions.

Well, relatively so, at least considering the criteria that he's chosen to examine (I'm assuming that it's correct, as its being false would be an entirely different story).

[Everett]

Let's take a completely random city.

Murder rates are rising. Church attendance is also rising.

Can we say that church attendance is causing murder rates to rise?

Perhaps they are both increasing because more people are moving into the city (id est, the population is increasing). As mentioned already, correlation is not the same as causation, and we cannot draw any conclusions about church attendance causing or being caused by increasing murder rates.

And BRTD, you only care about how much sex and lapdances you can have and whether or not your church/religion supports that. Grow up already and stop hiding behind your "mainline" and "liberal" BS.

[Speed of Sound]

I dont care what some loony person says in a report. If anything my religion has been something that has helped me significantly along the way.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

And BRTD, you only care about how much sex and lapdances you can have and whether or not your church/religion supports that. Grow up already and stop hiding behind your "mainline" and "liberal" BS.

Pretty much everyone I know is Christian outside of a few ultra-indie/punk/DIY folks who have a similar to attitude to opebo, but this doesn't include any girl I've had sex with, as far as I know. I'd wager all the girls I've had sex with have been Christian.

Strippers can be Christians too. I've seen some with religious jewelry or tattoos. Remember when I posted about that one who had the saint tattooed on her arm? If they can be Christian it's also to be Christian and get a lapdance from one.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

That would depend how "mainline" is defined and how "liberal" is defined

Mainline is pretty easy, any non-evangelical or fundamentalist Protestant. I'd also expand it to Catholics who largely don't care what their church says and should really be Protestant.

Liberal is more difficult though. It's not difficult if you're using it in a political sense, although there are definately liberal evangelicals (most obvious being Jimmy Carter). Now if you're talking about a theological sense that gets more difficult. Still this is what wikipedia says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Christianity

Most religious groups don't believe that y'know...

Of course not. But it's something lots of fundamentalists still do and like to use to define themselves as "true believers".

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Mainline is pretty easy, any non-evangelical or fundamentalist Protestant.

Yes, but what is "evangelical" and what is "fundamentalist"? Btw, there are some Anglicans that I'd describe as fundies; are they "mainline"?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Yes, but what is "evangelical" and what is "fundamentalist"?

Well what wikipedia says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christianity

Not all that easy to define, but there are obvious examples, it's safe to say Jimmy Carter is an Evangelical while not a Fundamentalist and Jerry Falwell is an Evangelical and Fundamentalist.

But I'd really say anyone who doesn't get "born again" is mainline.

Btw, there are some Anglicans that I'd describe as fundies; are they "mainline"?

Even in denominations there are some varieties, there are fundamentalist Lutheran churches that have virtually nothing in common with my denomination. So in the case of these folks, no.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Well what wikipedia says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christianity

Can't be bothered to read the second article, but the first is just shoddy... if there's one thing Evangelicalism (which is afterall a very, very broad term) isn't it's a conservative tendency.

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That's an absurd classification

[angus]

That's an absurd classification

no more or less absurd than the standard by which these "researchers" determined which side god was on in the first place.  I'd say, given the bizarre nature of the thread, and the fact that only one poster is even pretending to take the "study" seriously, any absurdity will simply add to the merriment.

speaking of...

which side the gods are on, or whether they exist, isn't something I give much thought to outside this forum (yeah, I'm shallow like that), but today it came up in a big way.  I was at the convenience store about four blocks from my house, speaking with the overweight black chick who works there.  she's a democrat-sympathizer, as I've found from our previous brief conversations as I sometimes browse the local paper.  anyway, today, the local paper had a big headline about how Governor Barbour is going to push for liberalized casino laws in the state leg.  (not a freebie for him, as only one of the two chambers is controlled by the GOP.  Unlike the US congress, the MS state has one of its chambers controlled by the anti-business party.)    So I saw the headline and mentioned it, "Barbour pushing for onshore casinos"  Right now, you can gamble only on riverboats in the rivers or offshore, but it's silly, and with the storms there's a push to allow them to build on terra firma.  Not that there's any shortage of wetlands (or casinos) here, but forcing them onto rivers and swamps is just bad business.  anyway, when I mumbled the headline out loud, she just shook her head.  I said, "so you're not into more casinos?  but it's good revenue.  and this state needs the revenue badly, don't you think?"  and she promptly said, "I don't think God wants casinos around.  you saw what he did to those in Biloxi last month."

  ?!?!

bizarre.  guess in her mind god isn't on the republicans side anyway.  and apparently he doesn't much care for the city of New Orleans either.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

no more or less absurd than the standard by which these "researchers" determined which side god was on in the first place. 

True

[CheeseWhiz]

I don't understand the bad opinion towards those who don't believe in evolution...  I've studied it, and rejected it; I didn't see why God needed help in the first place.

I don't believe the world is only six thousand years old, either, but I don't think someone is stupid if they do, I wasn't there and neither were you.  I don't think the world is so many trillion years old either, I believe it was without beginning or end.

[John Dibble]

I don't think the world is so many trillion years old either

Neither do I, I think it's only been around only about 4 or 5 billion, like the leading scientific theories state.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

There was a good article in my school paper on this actually (basically why science and religion are not neccesarily opposed), I'll post it tommorow once the current issue goes online.

[CheeseWhiz]

I don't think the world is so many trillion years old either

Neither do I, I think it's only been around only about 4 or 5 billion, like the leading scientific theories state.

Yeah, sorry about that   You did get what I was trying to say, though, right?

[John Dibble]

I don't think the world is so many trillion years old either

Neither do I, I think it's only been around only about 4 or 5 billion, like the leading scientific theories state.

Yeah, sorry about that   You did get what I was trying to say, though, right?

Yeah, just correcting you sarcastically.

[angus]

I don't think the world is so many trillion years old either

Neither do I, I think it's only been around only about 4 or 5 billion, like the leading scientific theories state.

Yeah, sorry about that   You did get what I was trying to say, though, right?

actually, now the the Cosmic Dust suggests that we're in a fifth expansion of the universe (which followed the first through fourth expansions and contractions), and that we're about 15 billion years into the current expansion.  neato.  anyway, I get what you say.  Although I never really had serious doubts about life on earth starting from single-celled organisms arising from the primordial soup some 3.5 billion years ago, I think it's largely irrelevant whether you "believe" in any of this.  it's just fun with math and such. 

assuming gods exist isn't really a problem either.  but assigning to them "sides" is a little weird, on the other hand.  don't you think?  I know the Maya and the Egyptians and the Romans did that sort of things, but our modern monotheistic religions, and even the ancient poly- and atheistic ones really don't need that sort of dogma.  It's not like the gods all sitting around somewhere in the aether making bets on who'll win wars and such.  Like humans at a football game.  but you never know.  Remember the Q from the continuum.  He was one really bizarre omnipotent fellow, wasn't he?  He had a great sense of humor as well. 

[John Dibble]

assuming gods exist isn't really a problem either.  but assigning to them "sides" is a little weird, on the other hand.  don't you think?  I know the Maya and the Egyptians and the Romans did that sort of things, but our modern monotheistic religions, and even the ancient poly- and atheistic ones really don't need that sort of dogma.  It's not like the gods all sitting around somewhere in the aether making bets on who'll win wars and such.  Like humans at a football game.  but you never know.  Remember the Q from the continuum.  He was one really bizarre omnipotent fellow, wasn't he?  He had a great sense of humor as well. 

Shiva: Hey Allah, what's up?
Allah: Not much, just looking at what Pakistan and India are doing. There might actually be a war this time!
Shiva: Really?
Allah: F*** yeah!
Shiva: Awesome, I can't wait to see India kick Pakistan's ass!
Allah: No way, ain't gonna happen, Pakistan would so beat the crap out of India.
Shiva: Oh yeah, care to place a bet on that?
Allah: Yeah, I bet $5 on Pakistan mopping the floor with India!
Shiva: You're on!
Buddha: Why are you two so violent? You should get a better hobby, like knitting.
Allah: Nobody asked you!
Shiva: Yeah, get out of here before we rough you up again, you fat nerd.
Buddha: Nobody understands me...

[angus]

Jesus:  whoa, allah, you can't resolve these things with violence.
Allah:  ah, sh**t, who let him in here?
Yahweh:  dude, put out that joint, mary's coming.
Mary:  Are you in there Jesus.  What have I told you about hanging out with those two?  Get upstairs right this instant.  and shave that scraggly beard!
Quetzalcoatl:  hey you old bag, the boy's old enough to make up his own mind.
Zeus:  yeah, Jesus, you want India or Pakistan?  five will get you 20 on pakistan, but the window's closing in two minutes, so make up your mind.
Hera:  Zeus, you better not be up there alone with mary!  Jesus, I don't know how Hillary Clinton could put up with that sort of thing, but I'm not!
Jesus:  Would you guys quit saying "JESUS" every time you get mad.  It's very confusing.

[angus]

Mercury (at door in domino's uniform):  so who ordered the pizza?

I am so f ucking stuffed right now.  Like a thanksgiving turkey.  Like an vietnamese chicken about to give Avian Flu to a hanoi family. 

So we had fried chicken tonight.  Rarely eat food prepared by others, since my wife and I both like to cook, and we both like good food, and we're both cheap.  But there's a Church's Chicken about 5 blocks from here, and we're both tired.  So I walked there and got a ten-piece mixed spicey order.  She had four of the pieces.  I had six.  There's quite a bit of fried chicken in Columbus, I've noticed.  Two Popeye's, at least two KFC restaurants, three Church's that I can think of.  And a bunch of small fried chicken places like that one on 125th street in Manhattan I mentioned.  ("Old fashioned, but good.)  KFC is very exotic, very pricey, and considered very sophisticated in China.  Funny that.  Every chinese person I know thinks of fried chicken as an exotic dish.  Especially that from KFC.  My wife tells me of how when she got her BS in Nanjing from the country's second most prestigious university, how her sister "treated" her family to KFC.  'Round here, it's considered commoners food.  I've also noticed how fried chicken is more and more popular the farther south you go.  And it's not a negro thing.  Because you can go far enough south that you don't see any negros and it just keeps getting more and more popular.  Start at Brownsville and start driving south, for example.  By the time you get to Guatemala City there's a Pollo Campero everywhere.  (You know Pollo Campero, a Guatemalan company, has opened up a restaurant in Barcelona!  Yep, barcelona.  Imperialismo al reves, mis amigos!  woo hoo.)  And there's one on every block in Guatemala.  And a KFC too.  But the condiments are a bit exotic.  Anyway, I'm very full of chicken.  And lots of crust and skin.  The old lady picks hers off.  I can't stand to waste it.  And anyway that's the best part.  Especially if you order spicey.  I can feel my arteries hardening as I type.  I'm going to finish off this bottle of merlot and take them out for a nice long walk.  you know, for the heart.  I'll come back and rant about something or another after I'm able to feel my circulation.  Meanwhile, I'll leave you with a mullet rock lyric.

There she stood in the street
Smiling from her head to her feet
I said hey what is this
Now maybe baby
Maybe you're in need for a kiss
I said slow don't talk so fast
Don't you think that love can last
She said love Lord above
Now you're trying to trick me in love

All right now
Baby it's all right now
All right now
Baby it's all right now

I took her home to my place
Watching every move on her face
She said look what's your game
Are you trying to put me in shame
I said slow don't talk so fast
Don't you think that love can last
She said love Lord above
Now you're tryin' to trick me in love

All right now
Baby it's all right now
All right now
Baby it's all right now

All right now
Baby it's all right now
All right now
Baby it's all right now

[MODU]

hahaha . . . you ok, angus? 

[angus]

well, it's called PFK down there.  Like in Quebec.  Ever notice that?  In Quebec and Montreal KFC is called PFK.  Same Colonel.  Same ugly red sign.  But the letters are PFK.  It's like that in guatamala too.  Pollo Frito de Kentuqui, I suppose, and Poullet Frite du Kentuck, I guess. 

oh, it occurs to me that I didn't see much fried chicken when I was in Peru and Bolivia.  So I suppose you can go far enough South that chicken's popularity gives way to cuy.

Short walk.  King Louis wasn't much in for a long stroll this evening.  Had that introspective look, he did.  He gets that way when he's trying to figure out how to achieve World Peace.  Or devising a cure for cancer.  Or thinking about the next great Energy Source.  I can't be sure which, since he doesn't speak much yet.  He knows exactly one English word and one Mandarin word.  Well, it's the same word:  MaMa.  But there'll be time for him to achieve all those things later.  Right now mama says he's not in the mood for a walk.  What mama says is the law.  You know how it is. 

Well, where were we.  Ah, yes, are societies worse off when they have god on their side? 

sh**t, I can't even pretend to take this thread seriously anymore.  I'm just glad none of youze can either.  Remember, it's the New York Times, and not the Times of London, that prints "all the news that's fit to print"  And ever since Jayson with a Y Blair came along, we don't really trust them either.  (and don't even get me started on that "dewey defeats truman" headline the editors chose to run.)  Well, you never really know whether it's the Times or the Onion nowadays.