Support Grows in Northern Ireland for Irish Unification
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  Support Grows in Northern Ireland for Irish Unification
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Author Topic: Support Grows in Northern Ireland for Irish Unification  (Read 4277 times)
Frodo
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« on: June 09, 2018, 07:03:30 PM »
« edited: June 10, 2018, 05:28:58 PM by Frodo »

Unification could come more quickly than we think:

Support in N.Ireland growing for Irish unification: poll

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Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/support-in-n-ireland-growing-for-irish-unification-poll/article/524200#ixzz5HyRrnlLT
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Puts into perspective this news from earlier this year about a group of Northern Irish unionist politicians negotiating with the government of Ireland over the details of an eventual unification. 




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ηєω ƒяσηтιєя
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2018, 07:11:49 PM »

Interesting poll.

I would definitely support Irish reunification.
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Frodo
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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2018, 01:49:59 PM »
« Edited: June 26, 2018, 07:11:58 PM by Frodo »

So, when would be the best time to hold a unification referendum from a republican perspective?  Wait until there’s a clear majority to avoid what happened when Scottish nationalists held their independence referendum in 2014? Or sooner to take advantage of the widespread dissatisfaction with Brexit in Northern Ireland?
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Frodo
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2018, 01:58:23 PM »

Also, what would be the case for Northern Ireland to unify with the Republic of Ireland?
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Tintrlvr
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« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2018, 10:15:33 PM »

So, when would be the best time to hold a unification referendum from a republican perspective?  Wait until there’s a clear majority to avoid what happened when Scottish nationalists held their independence referendum in 2016? Or sooner to take advantage of the widespread dissatisfaction with Brexit in Northern Ireland?

Other than this poll (and, for this reason, I find the result somewhat suspect), there is a lot of evidence that Catholics in Northern Ireland, especially younger Catholics, are becoming progressively less nationalist, so that even though demographic trends in Northern Ireland clearly point (for now) to a Catholic majority in the long term, it may not be a nationalist majority. Brexit might be changing those minds in the short term, at least.

On the other hand, the continued economic success of Ireland and struggles of the UK (and, even more so, of Northern Ireland in particular) may put a different twist on the issue in the future.
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Torrain
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2018, 05:16:09 AM »

So, when would be the best time to hold a unification referendum from a republican perspective?  Wait until there’s a clear majority to avoid what happened when Scottish nationalists held their independence referendum in 2016 2014? Or sooner to take advantage of the widespread dissatisfaction with Brexit in Northern Ireland?

The Scottish constitutional question hasn’t gone away. Most members of the Scottish Parliament are still elected in part based on their position on independence. The difference between Scotland and Northern Ireland is that Scotland is fairly elastic. NI is the most inelastic place in the UK, with only a fraction of seats in play at any given election. The voting blocs are also pretty similar in size, meaning that any referendum would come down to the wire.

The inelasticity makes it hard for any party to gain a large majority at Stormont (the NI Executive)to push a bill through, one that would have zero DUP or UUP support. Add to that the fact the NI has a power sharing agreement predicated on keeping both major parties in office at the same time, preventing one side from passing meaningful legislation. It would take a major political/economic crisis to create the environment for Stormont to approve a referendum

The way to look at it is this. Northern Ireland has is a fusion of North Carolina and Alabama. It has NC’s highly polarised environment, with a narrow majority for one party that’s been gerrymandered into a stable long term advantage, combined with AL’s social conservatism, extreme elasticity and willingness to rubberstamp terrible candidates because of their party colours.

TL;DR: even if the public wanted a referendum, the highly partisan environment in Northern Ireland would prevent it from occurring.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2018, 12:23:05 PM »

I would be extremely happy when Ulster is no longer part of the UK
And English tax payer money is spent on struggling working class communities in England rather than on a bunch of bigoted sectarian homophobes in northern Ireland.
It's gonna happen eventually, I would only feel sad for the people of the republic of Ireland who are gonna have to put up with those people.

There are struggling working class people in NI too.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2018, 08:00:25 AM »

I would be extremely happy when Ulster is no longer part of the UK
And English tax payer money is spent on struggling working class communities in England rather than on a bunch of bigoted sectarian homophobes in northern Ireland.
It's gonna happen eventually, I would only feel sad for the people of the republic of Ireland who are gonna have to put up with those people.

This is an acceptable thing to say only because all the groups involved are white.

Imagine if he made the same statement about homophobic Pakistanis.

Really it's weird that that would be considered so much more offensive. Especially since this guy probably has more in common culturally with NIers than he does with Pakistanis living in England.
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Hnv1
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2018, 01:25:53 PM »

how can you unify what was never one? (outside of British rule)
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WritOfCertiorari
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2018, 02:10:44 PM »

how can you unify what was never one? (outside of British rule)

Actually, the Kingdom of Ireland was an independent state in personal union with England and Scotland.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2018, 08:51:51 AM »

how can you unify what was never one? (outside of British rule)

Actually, the Kingdom of Ireland was an independent state in personal union with England and Scotland.

The Ascendancy period? I mean, technically, but... er...
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2018, 11:04:16 AM »

Other recent surveys show a quite different picture: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44468686
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WritOfCertiorari
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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2018, 01:45:22 PM »

how can you unify what was never one? (outside of British rule)

Actually, the Kingdom of Ireland was an independent state in personal union with England and Scotland.

The Ascendancy period? I mean, technically, but... er...

The people had about as much power as in any country in Europe, except maybe San Marino or something.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2018, 04:54:08 PM »

how can you unify what was never one? (outside of British rule)

Actually, the Kingdom of Ireland was an independent state in personal union with England and Scotland.

The Ascendancy period? I mean, technically, but... er...

The people had about as much power as in any country in Europe, except maybe San Marino or something.

No.

Now if you wanted to troll on this point you may wish to take note of the 1689 Patriot Parliament headed by James II, then deposed in England, which did indeed have authority over the whole island, if not for very long.
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WritOfCertiorari
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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2018, 07:38:04 PM »

how can you unify what was never one? (outside of British rule)

Actually, the Kingdom of Ireland was an independent state in personal union with England and Scotland.

The Ascendancy period? I mean, technically, but... er...

The people had about as much power as in any country in Europe, except maybe San Marino or something.

No.

Now if you wanted to troll on this point you may wish to take note of the 1689 Patriot Parliament headed by James II, then deposed in England, which did indeed have authority over the whole island, if not for very long.

Fair enough. Please explain how an English peasant had any more control over their country than did an Irish peasant. In taxes, foreign policy, justice, they basically were powerless. Also, need I mention that the after Elizabeth most of these monarchs were Scottish, not even English? And even the previous so called English were from Normandy, anyway. The average person in either country had little to no identification with their masters, even after the monarchy started using less of its power. Or should we pretend Walpole was ruling with consent of the governed in a public trust?
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2018, 06:45:25 PM »

how can you unify what was never one? (outside of British rule)

Actually, the Kingdom of Ireland was an independent state in personal union with England and Scotland.

The Ascendancy period? I mean, technically, but... er...

The people had about as much power as in any country in Europe, except maybe San Marino or something.

No.

Now if you wanted to troll on this point you may wish to take note of the 1689 Patriot Parliament headed by James II, then deposed in England, which did indeed have authority over the whole island, if not for very long.

Fair enough. Please explain how an English peasant had any more control over their country than did an Irish peasant. In taxes, foreign policy, justice, they basically were powerless. Also, need I mention that the after Elizabeth most of these monarchs were Scottish, not even English? And even the previous so called English were from Normandy, anyway. The average person in either country had little to no identification with their masters, even after the monarchy started using less of its power. Or should we pretend Walpole was ruling with consent of the governed in a public trust?

Yes, there's a very easy and clear distinction and it's that England in this period was not governed by Penal Laws that discriminated against the vast majority of the population based on their religious (effectively ethnic) background.

Under the Penal Laws, enacted slowly in the decades following the Williamite Wars and slowly dismantled from the last few decades of the 18th Century until well into the 19th an Irish Catholic could not in law:
- Own property over a certain amount; Indeed 17th Century Ireland saw the mass land seizure from Catholics into Protestant (here meaning Anglican, for Presbyterians and other dissenters were also discriminated against) families, this was 'the Ascendancy' Al referred to.
- Practice Primogeniture as a form of inheritance - rather all land a Catholic landowner did own must be subdivided amongst his sons. This was not the case for Anglicans, who did practice Primogeniture. The consequences of this should be easy to imagine.
- Vote, run for public office, hold a state position, enter many professions, join an armed force or own a firm arm. All these Anglicans had and dominated.
- Own a horse over a certain amount.
- Teach, run a formal school or be involved in Education.
- Have formal houses of religious worship. Catholic churches were to be made from perishable materials and away from major roads.
- Use what was usually their native language (Irish) in a formal or official setting. It is still the case in Northern Ireland that the Irish language cannot be used in a court of law.

Now I should add all these laws were enforced variably (and sometimes fell into disuse), and of course there was a lot of resistance. But this was not the same as England. It was what we call now - an Apartheid state.
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« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2018, 11:59:59 PM »

Good. N. Ireland has more in common with the Republic.
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EPG
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« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2018, 01:21:36 PM »

So, when would be the best time to hold a unification referendum from a republican perspective?  Wait until there’s a clear majority to avoid what happened when Scottish nationalists held their independence referendum in 2016? Or sooner to take advantage of the widespread dissatisfaction with Brexit in Northern Ireland?

Other than this poll (and, for this reason, I find the result somewhat suspect), there is a lot of evidence that Catholics in Northern Ireland, especially younger Catholics, are becoming progressively less nationalist, so that even though demographic trends in Northern Ireland clearly point (for now) to a Catholic majority in the long term, it may not be a nationalist majority. Brexit might be changing those minds in the short term, at least.

On the other hand, the continued economic success of Ireland and struggles of the UK (and, even more so, of Northern Ireland in particular) may put a different twist on the issue in the future.

Have you seen election results from before the 1980s? They are worth looking at and they get at your questions. They were really weak for Catholic parties, way below what numbers would suggest. Suggestive instead that Catholic attitudes to republicanism and nationalism in NI are largely a function of medium-term organisation and passion within the community, rather than long-term changes in opinion.
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Frodo
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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2018, 12:19:46 AM »

And another poll showing similar results:

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Interestingly, poll respondents in the Republic of Ireland aren't exactly gung-ho about uniting with their northern brethren. 
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TheSaint250
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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2018, 01:47:06 PM »

I do think one of the funnier, unexpected (at least to me) consequences of Brexit is Northern Irish secessionism being stronger than Scottish secessionism.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2018, 06:10:56 PM »

Do you people not understand how this works? This is not a normal question.
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Frodo
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« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2019, 08:04:23 AM »

Brexit shifts politics in Ireland as parties look north

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(...) A united Ireland, and Northern Ireland’s withdrawal from the United Kingdom, remain distant prospects, and a unity referendum may not happen soon. But, as an unexpected consequence of Brexit, the political landscape is shifting.

The two largest parties in the Irish republic, Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, both of whom ultimately favor a united Ireland, have expanded their political networks north of the border to position themselves for a possible “unity vote”.

Fine Gael, Ireland’s governing party, has also taken the unusual step of selecting one-time Northern Ireland Deputy First Minister Mark Durkan as a candidate to run in the Dublin constituency in this week’s European elections.

“The unity debate has gained legs in the context of Brexit,” Durkan, a former leader of the Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP), one of Northern Ireland’s two main pro-unity parties, told Reuters while campaigning in the Irish capital.
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Tintrlvr
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« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2019, 11:38:28 AM »

Bit of an outdated article now given that Mark Durkan got a humiliatingly bad result in Dublin for his trouble.
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Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese
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« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2019, 10:39:40 AM »

Do you people not understand how this works? This is not a normal question.

Oh come on Al, the question of Irish unification is a perfectly innocent political question no different from taxes or immigration.

Well I mean if you ignore the fact that the very question was the basis of 30 years of civil war in the region ending as recently as 13 years ago. But you know people are really divided about Brexit too and they're not killing each-other, so what's the harm?



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« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2019, 03:18:29 PM »

how can you unify what was never one? (outside of British rule)

Actually, the Kingdom of Ireland was an independent state in personal union with England and Scotland.

Before that you've had Lordship of Ireland which was technically a Papal fief granted to the King of England.
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