Migrant ship docks in Valencia, Spain; after being rejected by Italy and Malta

[Former President tack50]

Basically the story goes like this. A migrant ship wants to dock in Italy, but is refused by Interior minister Salvini (as his twitter said: #chiudiamoiporti; "we are closing the ports") and asked the ship to go to Malta. Malta eventually also refused, so the Spanish government has stepped in and PM Pedro Sánchez and mayor Joan Ribó have told the ship to dock in Valencia.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/article212936564.html

I wonder what everyone thinks about this. Will this also be a one off thing, or will a wave of inmigration be directed towards Spain now?

[Absolution9]

Salvini has stated that Italy's ports are permanently closed to migrant ships, at least for as long as the current government lasts.  That means these ships will either have to dock at another countries ports, possibly Spain as Malta has already refused, or the migrants will be stranded at sea/returned to Africa.

If Spain becomes the destination of choice I wonder in which direction will the new Socialist governments prospects go in the next election.  I suspect toward the toilet.

One wonders why Spain will feel the need to take hundreds of thousands of north/sub-Saharan Africans when they have practically unlimited numbers of culturally/lingually kindred Latin Americans that they could take instead.  I believe that many did immigrate during the boom years of the early to mid 2000's.

[Former President tack50]

Well, it's worth noting that inmigration was a big worry in the mid 00s and Zapatero still managed to be reelected in 2008. And he even did a mass legalization of inmigrants (then again so did Aznar so the attacks on that issue weren't as effective as they could be).

But I guess 2008 is a special case and most likely the right would go up a lot.

As for why they did this, they are justifying it on humaniatarian reasons (ie: We can't let them starve on the middle of the Mediterranean). But I guess the Spanish government might try to make it  a one off special thing that shouldn't be repeated.

Of course Spain doesn't really need any inmigrants, unemployment is still quite high at 15% with low wages. And yes, lots of people did inmigrate duirng the early/mid 00s. But it wasn't just Latin Americans (though they were the largest group). There were also a lot of Moroccans and Eastern Europeans (particularly Romanians) and several subsaharan Africans as well.

[Tender Branson]

I wonder what everyone thinks about this.

Salvini and the Maltese are correct.

It's about time these ships are sent back to Africa, to send a signal to future migrants that we have enough of them here already. We also need to send 10.000s of EU border guards to North African shores as well to prevent the ships taking off in the first place. In North Africa, they can file for asylum in Europe and can wait until their applications are processed.

[Absolution9]

Well, it's worth noting that inmigration was a big worry in the mid 00s and Zapatero still managed to be reelected in 2008. And he even did a mass legalization of inmigrants (then again so did Aznar so the attacks on that issue weren't as effective as they could be).

But I guess 2008 is a special case and most likely the right would go up a lot.

As for why they did this, they are justifying it on humaniatarian reasons (ie: We can't let them starve on the middle of the Mediterranean). But I guess the Spanish government might try to make it  a one off special thing that shouldn't be repeated.

Of course Spain doesn't really need any inmigrants, unemployment is still quite high at 15% with low wages. And yes, lots of people did inmigrate duirng the early/mid 00s. But it wasn't just Latin Americans (though they were the largest group). There were also a lot of Moroccans and Eastern Europeans (particularly Romanians) and several subsaharan Africans as well.

Different situation though, wasn't Spain's economy booming in the mid 2000's, especially a huge construction boom that created huge demand for mid-low skill immigrants.  I doubt Spain will ever have quite that kind of building demand again.

Also looking at the numbers on wiki looks like Romanians/Latin Americans were the main groups.  Easily assimilated, the only other country sending very large numbers was Morocco. 

[Meclazine for Israel]

The amount of poverty, disease and lack of education in Africa will mean people will always be queing up to attempt this journey.

Personally, a very difficult situation for refugees to deal with.

Southern Italy must be flooded with migrants for them to say no.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Well, it's worth noting that inmigration was a big worry in the mid 00s and Zapatero still managed to be reelected in 2008. And he even did a mass legalization of inmigrants (then again so did Aznar so the attacks on that issue weren't as effective as they could be).

But I guess 2008 is a special case and most likely the right would go up a lot.

As for why they did this, they are justifying it on humaniatarian reasons (ie: We can't let them starve on the middle of the Mediterranean). But I guess the Spanish government might try to make it  a one off special thing that shouldn't be repeated.

Of course Spain doesn't really need any inmigrants, unemployment is still quite high at 15% with low wages. And yes, lots of people did inmigrate duirng the early/mid 00s. But it wasn't just Latin Americans (though they were the largest group). There were also a lot of Moroccans and Eastern Europeans (particularly Romanians) and several subsaharan Africans as well.

Different situation though, wasn't Spain's economy booming in the mid 2000's, especially a huge construction boom that created huge demand for mid-low skill immigrants.  I doubt Spain will ever have quite that kind of building demand again.

Also looking at the numbers on wiki looks like Romanians/Latin Americans were the main groups.  Easily assimilated, the only other country sending very large numbers was Morocco. 

People in Western Europe weren't huge fans of the eastern European wave, and did not view them as assimilating.

[DavidB.]

Great move by the Italian government. "The party is over", as Salvini said.

[Middle-aged Europe]

I wonder what everyone thinks about this.

Salvini and the Maltese are correct.

It's about time these ships are sent back to Africa, to send a signal to future migrants that we have enough of them here already. We also need to send 10.000s of EU border guards to North African shores as well to prevent the ships taking off in the first place. In North Africa, they can file for asylum in Europe and can wait until their applications are processed.

You don't seem to understand what kind of a ship the "Aquarius" is.

The "Aquarius" is a rescue vessel under the flag of the British colony of Gibraltar and jointly operated by Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders) and SOS Méditerranée. The refugees on the "Aquarius" didn't board this vessel in an African port, but in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea.

[Absolution9]

I wonder what everyone thinks about this.

Salvini and the Maltese are correct.

It's about time these ships are sent back to Africa, to send a signal to future migrants that we have enough of them here already. We also need to send 10.000s of EU border guards to North African shores as well to prevent the ships taking off in the first place. In North Africa, they can file for asylum in Europe and can wait until their applications are processed.

You don't seem to understand what kind of a ship the "Aquarius" is.

The "Aquarius" is a rescue vessel under the flag of the British colony of Gibraltar and jointly operated by Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders) and SOS Méditerranée. The refugees on the "Aquarius" didn't board this vessel in an African port, but in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea.

Most likely the Aquarius picked them up about 30km off the coast of Libya not in the middle of the Med.  They should be transported back to whatever country they embarked from.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Most likely the Aquarius picked them up about 30km off the coast of Libya not in the middle of the Med.  They should be transported back to whatever country they embarked from.

Why the country they "embarked" from though? While many of these refugees enter the sea from Libya, they originated from African countries located further south in most cases. Why should they brought back to a random country they just happened to travel through? Because it's the most convenient solution to make them someone else's problem?

[Absolution9]

Most likely the Aquarius picked them up about 30km off the coast of Libya not in the middle of the Med.  They should be transported back to whatever country they embarked from.

Why the country they "embarked" from though? While many of these refugees enter the sea from Libya, they originated from African countries located further south in most cases. Why should they brought back to a random country they just happened to travel through? Because it's the most convenient solution to make them someone else's problem?

Libya made this its problem when it didn't stop the migrants from entering its territory and when it allowed them to embark from its territory.  Granted the idiotic governments of the US/France/UK attacked Libya destabilizing it in the first place.  Quadaffi had almost won in a relatively low impact way when they intervened and threw the country into permanent chaos.

The only long term solution is to pay Libya to prevent embarkations (and other countries in North Africa) and to pay countries of origin to take their people back when they do slip in.

Otherwise Europe will be flooded by a tsunami of people from Africa, the continents population is projected to rise from 1.2B in 2018 to almost 4B in 2100. The continents GDP per capita is only $1800 currently and not rising all that fast.

[Tender Branson]

I wonder what everyone thinks about this.

Salvini and the Maltese are correct.

It's about time these ships are sent back to Africa, to send a signal to future migrants that we have enough of them here already. We also need to send 10.000s of EU border guards to North African shores as well to prevent the ships taking off in the first place. In North Africa, they can file for asylum in Europe and can wait until their applications are processed.

You don't seem to understand what kind of a ship the "Aquarius" is.

The "Aquarius" is a rescue vessel under the flag of the British colony of Gibraltar and jointly operated by Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders) and SOS Méditerranée. The refugees on the "Aquarius" didn't board this vessel in an African port, but in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea.

Of course I understand "what ship this is".

Just because they picked them out of the water in the Med Sea (which they should of course, nobody should drown), it also means that they should then be brought back to Africa again.

Which is where they came from. It's not that they came from the Atlantic, or from China ...

Take them back to Africa right away, where they can file for asylum and where they can wait until they get the green light or not.

We need a system like this, where the EU border agency is upgraded and outfitted significantly to rescue and take the people back to Africa. We also need 10.000s of border agents in North Africa to process their claims and to secure the coasts from illegals and smugglers and to take care of the large centers there and to return the people to the interior of Africa.

The land border in the South-East needs to be fortified with walls and fences similar to those Israel uses, with electric fencing, drones, surveillance cams and patrols with dogs to detect and deter smugglers and illegals.

Illegals who still make it into the EU, should be deported back to Africa immediately or be sent to a newly established asylum center in Greenland as a deterrant for other illegals.

[President Johnson]

Well, I can understand the Italian government. They have taken so many asylum seekers, it's really stunning. They have enough problems with their economy already... If I was in Spain's position, I'd only take women and children.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I wonder what everyone thinks about this.

Salvini and the Maltese are correct.

It's about time these ships are sent back to Africa, to send a signal to future migrants that we have enough of them here already. We also need to send 10.000s of EU border guards to North African shores as well to prevent the ships taking off in the first place. In North Africa, they can file for asylum in Europe and can wait until their applications are processed.

Without looking at this specific case I just have one question: should the EU let in the people who are clearly running for their lives, either due to violence or little prospects of surviving? I'm asking because sometimes we tend to lump diffrent categories together without making important distinctions.

[DavidB.]

I wonder what everyone thinks about this.

Salvini and the Maltese are correct.

It's about time these ships are sent back to Africa, to send a signal to future migrants that we have enough of them here already. We also need to send 10.000s of EU border guards to North African shores as well to prevent the ships taking off in the first place. In North Africa, they can file for asylum in Europe and can wait until their applications are processed.

Without looking at this specific case I just have one question: should the EU let in the people who are clearly running for their lives, either due to violence or little prospects of surviving?

No. Perhaps we should help them out in a different way, for instance by funding humanitarian camps in third countries. But we should not take them in.

[Velasco]

I haven't read athread in this board in a couple of years.

Rolling down a hill. Trainwreck. Orban, the Polish twins, a guy from Austria. OMG

I'm glad to see that compassion and decency haven't dissapeared in Europe. Reading some posters here, I can't help but thinking Old World is doomed (and Donald Trump rules the New World). Sad

[gerritcole]

I haven't read athread in this board in a couple of years.

Rolling down a hill. Trainwreck. Orban, the Polish twins, a guy from Austria. OMG

I'm glad to see that compassion and decency haven't dissapeared in Europe. Reading some posters here, I can't help but thinking Old World is doomed (and Donald Trump rules the New World). Sad

How far does compassion go? Would you set yourself on fire to warm someone else?

[Velasco]

How far does compassion go? Would you set yourself on fire to warm someone else?

Collecting shipwrecked people in the sea is an elementary act of humanitarianism that won't set yourself on fire, in case you decide to behave like a human. International humanitarian law says that the authorities of the nearest port have the duty of harboring the shipwrecked. I know that there are thousands of them between Lybia and Italy, but only beasts like Matteo Salvini allow them to die.

Confront this: demography and economic disparity between the two shores of the Mediterranean Sea represent a time bomb. There is no easy solution and it's impossible to build up walls on the sea. Distrust Donald Trump and the guy from Austria: it's not possible. Unless Europe is able to manage the problem together in order to find viable and humanitarian solutions, the Old World is doomed. Solidarity and pragmatism can save us; cruelty and selfishness can be our death sentence.

[DavidB.]

I know that there are thousands of them between Lybia and Italy, but only beasts like Matteo Salvini allow them to die.

Only beasts would pick them up and allow them to enter Europe, incentivizing thousands and thousands of other people to risk their lives in order to win the big prize: life in Europe. The most humanitarian policy is to turn back every single boat and not allowing people to apply for asylum in Europe. They will stop coming. It will save thousands of lives.

[Tender Branson]

Velasco/Andi: please get rid of your ultra-leftism and get a brain. If you do, you would realize that by keeping the Africans and Middle-Easterners in their home countries it would save thousands of lives (not just there, but also here). We need to destroy the magnetism that some of our failed politicians have allowed to take hold in Europe, without asking the native people. What we need to do instead is to help Africans and Middle Easterners to stop breeding like rats. Their high population growth rates will only lead to more miserable lives there (in regions that will be destroyed by climate change anyway), more extremism and bigger migrant waves. Educate the women there, lecture the males there to be more tolerant and lay off religion and provide them with free contraceptives. And keep them out of Europe.

[parochial boy]

The Real Problem™ though, lies in the crossing the Sahara and the situation migrants find themselves in once they reach Libya. Worrying about the actual Meditteranean passage above else is worrying about something far too late, because once someone is in Libya, there isn't really an alternative.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Velasco/Andi: please get rid of your ultra-leftism and get a brain. If you do, you would realize that by keeping the Africans and Middle-Easterners in their home countries it would save thousands of lives (not just there, but also here). We need to destroy the magnetism that some of our failed politicians have allowed to take hold in Europe, without asking the native people. What we need to do instead is to help Africans and Middle Easterners to stop breeding like rats. Their high population growth rates will only lead to more miserable lives there (in regions that will be destroyed by climate change anyway), more extremism and bigger migrant waves. Educate the women there, lecture the males there to be more tolerant and lay off religion and provide them with free contraceptives. And keep them out of Europe.

Is it a good idea to encourage population decline without economic prosperity first? It's hard enough to manage a greying population in an already rich country like Japan or whatever, harder still in a country which has no effective resources for pensions.

(Especially as MeNA birth rates are cratering for the most part anyways, to the extent most of the growth is coming from ethnic minorities anyway).

I think the easiest, cost-effective thing to do would be to fund more makework programs in Africa and invest in urbanisation. Perhaps you could start a guest worker program, but that would run into issues of being exploitative a la Gulf states and potentially causing friction with local populations.

[Diouf]

59% support Salvini's no to migrant vessels in Italian ports. 24% against. 17% dont know. Clear majorities amongst FI, Lega and M5S. Hopefully Salvini's brave actions can finally put an end to the evil current asylum system, that incentivize tens of thousands to make their way across the Mediterranean in dangerous circumstances. Ships need to do pushbacks of migrants vessel into Libyan waters or bring the boats all the way back to the Libyan coasts. This will quickly reduce the number of crossings significantly, so the ship policing shouldn't even be that expensive or hard to do.

[Famous Mortimer]

Velasco/Andi: please get rid of your ultra-leftism and get a brain. If you do, you would realize that by keeping the Africans and Middle-Easterners in their home countries it would save thousands of lives (not just there, but also here). We need to destroy the magnetism that some of our failed politicians have allowed to take hold in Europe, without asking the native people. What we need to do instead is to help Africans and Middle Easterners to stop breeding like rats. Their high population growth rates will only lead to more miserable lives there (in regions that will be destroyed by climate change anyway), more extremism and bigger migrant waves. Educate the women there, lecture the males there to be more tolerant and lay off religion and provide them with free contraceptives. And keep them out of Europe.

Is it a good idea to encourage population decline without economic prosperity first? It's hard enough to manage a greying population in an already rich country like Japan or whatever, harder still in a country which has no effective resources for pensions.
populations.

If they can't even fund the pensions of people they have now, why would they want to take on additional welfare cases?