Migrant ship docks in Valencia, Spain; after being rejected by Italy and Malta

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Velasco/Andi: please get rid of your ultra-leftism and get a brain. If you do, you would realize that by keeping the Africans and Middle-Easterners in their home countries it would save thousands of lives (not just there, but also here). We need to destroy the magnetism that some of our failed politicians have allowed to take hold in Europe, without asking the native people. What we need to do instead is to help Africans and Middle Easterners to stop breeding like rats. Their high population growth rates will only lead to more miserable lives there (in regions that will be destroyed by climate change anyway), more extremism and bigger migrant waves. Educate the women there, lecture the males there to be more tolerant and lay off religion and provide them with free contraceptives. And keep them out of Europe.

Is it a good idea to encourage population decline without economic prosperity first? It's hard enough to manage a greying population in an already rich country like Japan or whatever, harder still in a country which has no effective resources for pensions.
populations.

If they can't even fund the pensions of people they have now, why would they want to take on additional welfare cases?

I know you havr a one track mind, but please learn to read. I'm not talking about encouraging immigration to western nations, I'm talking about the effect of a population decline on poor nations themselves.

[Velasco]

Finally the shiparrived to Spain

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/17/migrant-rescue-ship-aquarius-to-dock-in-spain-after-rough-week-at-sea

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[Velasco]

Velasco/Andi: please get rid of your ultra-leftism and get a brain. If you do, you would realize that by keeping the Africans and Middle-Easterners in their home countries it would save thousands of lives (not just there, but also here). We need to destroy the magnetism that some of our failed politicians have allowed to take hold in Europe, without asking the native people. What we need to do instead is to help Africans and Middle Easterners to stop breeding like rats. Their high population growth rates will only lead to more miserable lives there (in regions that will be destroyed by climate change anyway), more extremism and bigger migrant waves. Educate the women there, lecture the males there to be more tolerant and lay off religion and provide them with free contraceptives. And keep them out of Europe.

1) Why Africans and Middle-Easterners leave their countries, travelling long distances and breasting innumerable dangers and hardships?

Do you know anything about the terrible living conditions and the atrocities immigrants suffer at the hands of local traffickers in countries like Libya? Do you know what is the origin of the chaos ruling in that country of Northern Africa? Do you know that Italy has been left virtually alone in dealing with the situation, because solidarity is a value that is dissapearing in Europe? Do you know that the flow of illegal African immigrants was reduced thanks to the efforts made by a minister of the previous administration, dealing separately with the different factions in Libya? Do you care about anything or do you feel comfortable in your right-wing populist demagoguery?

2) What is your approach to the issue of Africans and Middle Easterners breeding like rats? Will you send them condom wrappers or something? Will you send money? By the way, the expression "breeding like rats" is worthy of neo-fascist scum like Matteo Salvini.

3) What is your approach to the population decline in Europe? Do you think economic prosperity can be maintained without immigration?

4) How do you think people will survive in countries devastated by climate change?

Your post suggests that you don't give a f***, Austrian guy. You know that climate change is the consequence of polluting emissions in industrialized countries. Do you think Africans deserve to bear the brunt when they have contributed nearly nothing to create the global warming? Would you try to help them or would you let them die in their hellholes?

[seb_pard]

Excelent news, hope that they aren't taken to the CIES (and that could be a policy change in the EU).


Kudos to Valencia (song in Valencian):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI19iKuNeHg

[Velasco]

59% support Salvini's no to migrant vessels in Italian ports. 24% against. 17% dont know. Clear majorities amongst FI, Lega and M5S. Hopefully Salvini's brave actions can finally put an end to the evil current asylum system, that incentivize tens of thousands to make their way across the Mediterranean in dangerous circumstances. Ships need to do pushbacks of migrants vessel into Libyan waters or bring the boats all the way back to the Libyan coasts. This will quickly reduce the number of crossings significantly, so the ship policing shouldn't even be that expensive or hard to do.

.

You are wrong. The reasons that are moving people to cross in dangerous conditions are poverty and war. I doubt that many immigrants know anything about the asylum system when they decide to leave their countries. Asylum conditions may become harder in destination countries, but they will continue coming if the situación in origin countries persist.

As for Salvini's actions, they are anything but brave. Rather, they are opportunistic and coward. There is no bravery in cruelty . It's not surprising that the iron fist approach of neofascist Salvini is popular. Demagogues appeal to basic instincts and sometimes people follow them. Italy faces a complicated situation since Libya became in a failed state when Gaddafi lost power and life. The country received little help from Europe, hence it's not surprising the rise of Europhobic populism (5 Stelle) and neofascism (Lega).

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

How is the ship arrival being viewed in Spain?

[Velasco]

How is the ship arrival being viewed in Spain?

I think public opinion has a positive view but I haven't seen serious polls, only an online survey in 20minutos (68 per cent approves, 29 per cent against)

This weekend,1290 people have been rescued alive in the sea near Andalusia, in the south of Spain. There are 4 dead and 63 dissapeared

https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/3370925/0/fin-semana-migrantes-rescatados-muertos-desaparecidos-andalucia/

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

It's extremely brave to allow migrants to drown in the ocean. It's ultra-leftism to.....prevent people from drowning.

[Tender Branson]

Hopefully, the Spanish authorities learned a bit from the past and didn't let in the ultra-leftist welcome-clapping and -waving crowd when the ships arrived ...

It's extremely brave to allow migrants to drown in the ocean. It's ultra-leftism to.....prevent people from drowning.

Nobody said that. I even said in this thread that they should be rescued, but brought back right away to North Africa.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Hopefully, the Spanish authorities learned a bit from the past and didn't let in the ultra-leftist welcome-clapping and -waving crowd when the ships arrived ...

It's extremely brave to allow migrants to drown in the ocean. It's ultra-leftism to.....prevent people from drowning.

Nobody said that. I even said in this thread that they should be rescued, but brought back right away to North Africa.

That's less abhorrent but, as I've argued elsewhere, it's not a solution. European nations must reckon with the fact that it would require a Marshall Plan or more to stem the flow of migration in a manner that's consistent with basic humanitarian concerns and these costs may not be desirable, depending on your outlook. Barring this, the choice is barbarism.

I do not believe that the EU is capable of handling migration at this juncture. Most European nations are puzzled as to how to deal with 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant-descended peoples, it would be foolish to argue that Germany or Austria ought to take in more migrants. That said, there may be little option going forward.

Like it or not, for geographical reasons, the MENA region might as well part be part of Europe. At the very least, Spain cannot ignore this history, even if other European nation-states choose ignorance.

[Diouf]

59% support Salvini's no to migrant vessels in Italian ports. 24% against. 17% dont know. Clear majorities amongst FI, Lega and M5S. Hopefully Salvini's brave actions can finally put an end to the evil current asylum system, that incentivize tens of thousands to make their way across the Mediterranean in dangerous circumstances. Ships need to do pushbacks of migrants vessel into Libyan waters or bring the boats all the way back to the Libyan coasts. This will quickly reduce the number of crossings significantly, so the ship policing shouldn't even be that expensive or hard to do.

.

You are wrong. The reasons that are moving people to cross in dangerous conditions are poverty and war. I doubt that many immigrants know anything about the asylum system when they decide to leave their countries. Asylum conditions may become harder in destination countries, but they will continue coming if the situación in origin countries persist.

As for Salvini's actions, they are anything but brave. Rather, they are opportunistic and coward. There is no bravery in cruelty . It's not surprising that the iron fist approach of neofascist Salvini is popular. Demagogues appeal to basic instincts and sometimes people follow them. Italy faces a complicated situation since Libya became in a failed state when Gaddafi lost power and life. The country received little help from Europe, hence it's not surprising the rise of Europhobic populism (5 Stelle) and neofascism (Lega).

Poverty yes. The economic situation is worse than in Europe in most parts of the World, but that doesn't mean they should all be allowed to come to Europe. And of course they know all about the asylum systems and conditions in countries, which is why very few of them go east and instead prefer to cross through Europe to Germany and Sweden. And the Australian success shows exactly that when boats are turned back, they stop coming. It is not like conditions in the surrounding countries there have suddenly increased a lot.

I cannot understand that people think it's more humane to support policies that encourage persons to make it across the dangerous Sea. I cannot see why good persons would prefer to spend money on helping 3 migrants to a sweet life in Berlin instead of helping 30.000 migrants away from horrible conditions in a camp outside Europe. That seems quite cruel and selfish.

Salvini's actions are brave, because he is the first EU minister, who takes active steps towards the Australian model (don't allow any migrant boats), which will quite obviously be the future model. The first one making such a paradigmatic shift will always get a lot of criticism and hate, but in the long term this is the only viable and most humane model.

[Velasco]

Poverty yes. The economic situation is worse than in Europe in most parts of the World, but that doesn't mean they should all be allowed to come to Europe. And of course they know all about the asylum systems and conditions in countries, which is why very few of them go east and instead prefer to cross through Europe to Germany and Sweden. And the Australian success shows exactly that when boats are turned back, they stop coming. It is not like conditions in the surrounding countries there have suddenly increased a lot.

I cannot understand that people think it's more humane to support policies that encourage persons to make it across the dangerous Sea. I cannot see why good persons would prefer to spend money on helping 3 migrants to a sweet life in Berlin instead of helping 30.000 migrants away from horrible conditions in a camp outside Europe. That seems quite cruel and selfish.

Salvini's actions are brave, because he is the first EU minister, who takes active steps towards the Australian model (don't allow any migrant boats), which will quite obviously be the future model. The first one making such a paradigmatic shift will always get a lot of criticism and hate, but in the long term this is the only viable and most humane model.

Australia has the advantage of being isolated and distances by sea are vast. I guess their authorities can handle better the flow of immigrants. I don't know the numbers, the flow of immigrants to Australia has the same magnitude as the flow between the Mditerranean shores? Anyway, the Australian model is not what we should aim to, if we want to retpect ourselves as democratic nations. I heard something about camps in the Suthern Australia desert and it's not very nice, coming from a counry that is an advanced democracy with a great degree of economic development.

I think that attributing the massive immigrant flow to policies that supposedly encourage people to come to Europe is a serious misconception. Firstly, because getting asylum has became harder and not the opposite. Secondly, because the underlying causes (poverty. war, lack of opportunities) remain and the prospect is not good. Presumably climate change will make things worse in the near future.

Given these factors, the flow of immigrants will grow with fairly certainty. Maybe Europe will have to face there are tens of millions of people at the gates. How do you think such an avalanche can be contained? How many refugee camps will be needed to place such amount of people? What about the countries where the camps are located? You may think that I'm painting  a dystopic portrait, but this future is not an unrealistic possibility. Repressive "stop the boats" policies will be ineffective if we reach that point. The worst thing -in case that happens- is that our democracies will suffer in the process. Fascist and authoritarian demagogues -in the style of Salvini and Orban- will cut rights and freedoms in the name of national security.

Actually that is happening now. Fascism is already here. Aren't you concerned?

It'd be more reasonable the approach outlined by TheDeadFlagBlues, honestly. I don't advocate for "wide open doors" policies because probably they are not viable, despite opening doors to everybody is what I would like to do. However, Europe should increase exponentially foreign aid. As I said before, solidarity and pragmatism can save us. Cruelty and selfishness only can bring terrible things. If the destiny of Rurope is left at the hands of demagogues like Salvini, we are doomed.

As for the humanitarian action of the Spanish government, it's a drop in the ocean but it's better than nothing. I'm proud of it.

[Velasco]

Hopefully, the Spanish authorities learned a bit from the past and didn't let in the ultra-leftist welcome-clapping and -waving crowd when the ships arrived ...

It's extremely brave to allow migrants to drown in the ocean. It's ultra-leftism to.....prevent people from drowning.

Nobody said that. I even said in this thread that they should be rescued, but brought back right away to North Africa.

Those immigrants come from countries that lie to the south of North Africa, why should them return to Libya? Do you think Libyans want them? Are Salvni and other like-minded fascist morons willing to pay Libyans or something? Do you think Libyans are idiots? Immigrants will try again and again... And more will be coming in the future.

This time the Spanish government harbored the immigrants rejected by the fascist Salvini, but it was an exception. There will bere more humanitarian ships collecting people in the sea trying to reach the nearest port. How many people will die thanks to the heir of Mussolini?

In case public opinion doesn't react, it will be the sign that we are heading to barbarism. Some posters are already living in the Dark Ages, apparently.

[DavidB.]

Maybe Europe will have to face there are tens of millions of people at the gates. How do you think such an avalanche can be contained? How many refugee camps will be needed to place such amount of people? What about the countries where the camps are located? You may think that I'm painting  a dystopic portrait, but this future is not an unrealistic possibility. Repressive "stop the boats" policies will be ineffective if we reach that point. The worst thing -in case that happens- is that our democracies will suffer in the process. Fascist and authoritarian demagogues -in the style of Salvini and Orban- will cut rights and freedoms in the name of national security.

You yourself already mention what might happen if the sh**t truly hits the fan, and I agree. The 2015 migration crisis might be nothing compared to the numbers of people that could come to Europe within a few decades given Africa's population explosion in combination with climate change, and our democracies could very well come under threat if that happens (Salvini and Orbán might look pretty tame compared to what we might get then). I am pretty sure the system's replacement would not be as good as what we have right now, and that's an understatement: I could very well be under threat personally under such a government. The only way to make sure this scenario does not happen is to restrict immigration as much as possible. If we open the doors now, we are almost sure more people will come too.

[Velasco]

The only way to make sure this scenario does not happen is to restrict immigration as much as possible. If we open the doors now, we are almost sure more people will come too.

That's not the way. What's the solution proposed by right-wing populists, making Europe a bunker state? For how long? At what cost? Would you sacrifice democracy in exchange for a false sense of security? Is Europe ready for Fascism?

Many people is so scared at this catastrophic perspective that is hailing fascist clowns like Matteo Salvini. The threat posed by demography and economic disparities is real, but we haven't reached that point. Populist and fascist parties are fuelling fears with alarmist and oportunist calls, revealing the worst and the ugliest face of our societies.

The 2015 migrant crisis already highlighted that something is going wrong in our societies. I don't like the Merkel's approach to the Greek crisis and the whole austerity thing, but she revealed her human side reacting to this photo of the drowned Syrian child:



While some people still care and have humanitarian concerns, there is an increasing number of people blinded by fear and drowned in selfishness.

I already said that maybe leaving doors open wide open is not viable. Neither is viable building walls on the sea. The only comprehensible solution is coordinating the efforts of the different European states in order to regulate immigrant flows. Such regulation must take into account humanitarian concerns, as well international law must be respected because doing otherwise would be eroding the pillars of our democracies. Simultaneously it's necessary a big and coordinated effort in Foreign Aid, or as Pope Francis puts it a new Marshall Plan. Helping to improve living consitions in the origin countries is the best way to prevent a flood of refugees to the North. People who leaves poor countries use to be the younger and the more skilled, creating the conditions for them to stay is the best thing that we can do for their countries. Solidarity, cooperation, pragmatism: this is the approach that we the Europeans should support. It"s a matter of common sense. Sadly there's little ground for optimism when you see that fascist demagogues and their garbage prevail.

Salvini won the Sienna local election. HOORAY!

[Devout Centrist]

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No, actually that sounds like the exact policy situation that will greatly undermine democracy on the continent, along with national cooperation. The best solution is political stability in Africa and a continental economic plan that raises living standards greatly over the course of the next three decades. Isolationism and strict immigration policies will do nothing to address the root cause of the problem.

[ingemann]

3) What is your approach to the population decline in Europe? Do you think economic prosperity can be maintained without immigration?

The reason population decline in Europe is problematic is because it lower the percent of productive people in the different state and increase the non-productive people as people leave the work force. But here it doesn't help bringing in people who as a statistic population are also unproductive. That doesn't solve the problem but increase it. Most European countries doesn't lack unskilled labour and even the unskilled labour we do use tend to a skillset, which are miles ahead of most of these migrants, as a unskilled Pole/Dane/Frenchmen/etc have a command of the local language, a elementary education and a understanding of the society they live and work in.

Spain may have some use of these people in their agricultural sector, but most of us lack the same need for farmhands.

[Lord Halifax]

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No, actually that sounds like the exact policy situation that will greatly undermine democracy on the continent, along with national cooperation. The best solution is political stability in Africa and a continental economic plan that raises living standards greatly over the course of the next three decades. Isolationism and strict immigration policies will do nothing to address the root cause of the problem.

It's hyperbolic to say that restrictive immigration policies undermine democracy. On the contrary, if they are what the voters want implementing them is an expression of democracy. Whether they undermine cooperation between European countries depends on whether they can be implemented in a coordinated way. As more and more European countries elect anti-immigration governments restrictive immigration policies may end up being the norm and they could coordinate naval patrols in the Med, transporting migrants back to North Africa and force migrant producing countries to take back their expelled citizens.

Of course it would be preferable to solve the root causes of the problem, but that is at best a long term strategy and may not be feasible at all. In the meantime European countries need to protect themselves by making sure the security threats and social problems from dysfunctional societies do not spill over into theirs.

[Devout Centrist]

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No, actually that sounds like the exact policy situation that will greatly undermine democracy on the continent, along with national cooperation. The best solution is political stability in Africa and a continental economic plan that raises living standards greatly over the course of the next three decades. Isolationism and strict immigration policies will do nothing to address the root cause of the problem.

It's hyperbolic to say that restrictive immigration policies undermine democracy. On the contrary, if they are what the voters want implementing them is an expression of democracy.

In some respects, this is true. However, the most hardline anti-immigration parties in Europe tend to embrace nationalism, authoritarianism, and other values that are antithetical to pluralism and multiparty, liberal democracy. Illiberalism usually coincides with these movements, for rather obvious reasons. That’s not to say that refusing to accept migrants is inherently undemocratic, but there is an ideological overlap in some respects.

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The EU has already been unable to do this at present; any anti-immigrant coalition would have to reckon with the prospect of setting up multinational institutions and infrastructure (holding facilities, for example). However, not all anti-immigration parties will see cooperation as the solution; in fact, the potential for substantial discord in any anti-immigrant coalition in Western Europe is high.

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This is the only humanitarian option in the long run; as stated above by thedeadflagblues (a far more intelligent and articulate person than I), anything short of substantial economic aid and assistance to African nations from Europe and the United States will mean resorting to barbarism. The current short term fixes being floated do have a place in policy. But without any long term vision, all of it is meaningless.

[DavidB.]

The only way to make sure this scenario does not happen is to restrict immigration as much as possible. If we open the doors now, we are almost sure more people will come too.

That's not the way. What's the solution proposed by right-wing populists, making Europe a bunker state? For how long? At what cost? Would you sacrifice democracy in exchange for a false sense of security? Is Europe ready for Fascism?

We are much more likely to sacrifice democracy when the multicultural experiment pushed by our elites goes horribly wrong (and it will go horribly wrong if, G-d forbid, nothing changes) than when we close our borders to protect what we have: our countries and our democracies.

Would you sacrifice democracy in exchange for a country where native people are the minority, which you desperately seem to want? Or would you rather keep democracy, but maintain our current demographic status-quo, which you seem to hate?

Many people is so scared at this catastrophic perspective that is hailing fascist clowns like Matteo Salvini. The threat posed by demography and economic disparities is real, but we haven't reached that point. Populist and fascist parties are fuelling fears with alarmist and oportunist calls, revealing the worst and the ugliest face of our societies.

The 2015 migrant crisis already highlighted that something is going wrong in our societies. I don't like the Merkel's approach to the Greek crisis and the whole austerity thing, but she revealed her human side reacting to this photo of the drowned Syrian child:

It's a shame she responded to that picture and not to the pictures of the children whose parents were killed in the numerous terror attacks perpetrated by  "refugees".

While some people still care and have humanitarian concerns, there is an increasing number of people blinded by fear and drowned in selfishness.

If caring about European peoples' futures is selfish and wanting natives to become minorities in their own countries humanitarian, I'd opt for selfishness every day. All other nations are allowed and expected to put their own interests first. Only Europeans are expected and supposed to put others' interests first.

Salvini won the Sienna local election. HOORAY!

Amen. Many more such victories will follow everywhere in Europe.

[Tender Branson]

New Austria poll on that issue:

"Should Austria close the border and/or return all additional incoming refugees ?"

69% Yes

"Is Austria prepared enough to deal with another large refugee influx like the one in 2015 ?"

74% No

"Who has the better policy line on asylum/refugees ?"

70% Seehofer (CSU)
30% Merkel (CDU)

"Do you want Merkel to resign as German Chancellor ?"

58% Yes
42% No

http://www.oe24.at/welt/Asyl-Gipfel-So-wird-Europa-zur-Festung/339231321

[Tender Branson]

New boy-band called "Visegrad-5" with their new album "Migrants out !":

[EPG]

Who's native people? If you want to keep non-native people out, should you quit the EU which allows Italians/Spaniards to arrive? Or are we talking about a different type of native people, in which case what distinguishes Jews (clearly native to Europe for well over 1k years) from Arabs (less long-standing, but equally "non-native")?

[Devout Centrist]

New boy-band called "Visegrad-5" with their new album "Migrants out !":

I haven’t seen something this low energy in quite some time

[DavidB.]

Who's native people? If you want to keep non-native people out, should you quit the EU which allows Italians/Spaniards to arrive? Or are we talking about a different type of native people, in which case what distinguishes Jews (clearly native to Europe for well over 1k years) from Arabs (less long-standing, but equally "non-native")?

Migration of Europeans to other European countries is fine (as long as neighborhoods don't completely turn into foreign-dominated areas): Europeans tend to integrate perfectly well within other European countries. Ashkenazi Jews have been in Europe for so long (Ashkenazi means German...) that we have become European over time. Only larpers would insist otherwise. Arabs just aren't native to Europe and tend to integrate very poorly in European societies.