Italy begins ethnic cleansing plan

[Devout Centrist]

That's not really the League's voter profile - it's not particularly a class party in any meaningful sense, and to the extent that it is (a very limited extent) the main leaning is towards what's maybe best termed lower middle class. Five Star is a different story o/c.

Thank you for pointing this out. Let’s, instead, take a look at the main divide in support for the League. The main disparity in support for Lega Nord is geographic; if you look at the largest single party by jurisdiction in the Chamber of Deputies, there is a very clear geographic divide:



This is unsurprising, given the history of Lega Nord and the parties that merged to form it in 1991. There used to be a substantial Padanian Nationalist wing of the party, now since reduced to but a handful of Deputies. However, the League still embraces regionalism and federalism (for rather obvious reasons).

Any class divide is rather inconsequential. It’s tiresome to hear the same argument over and over again.

[Person Man]

How is this ethnic cleansing if they're only targeting non-citizens and leaving Roma who are citizens?

easier?

[EPG]

That's not really the League's voter profile - it's not particularly a class party in any meaningful sense, and to the extent that it is (a very limited extent) the main leaning is towards what's maybe best termed lower middle class. Five Star is a different story o/c.

Thank you for pointing this out. Let’s, instead, take a look at the main divide in support for the League. The main disparity in support for Lega Nord is geographic; if you look at the largest single party by jurisdiction in the Chamber of Deputies, there is a very clear geographic divide:

This is unsurprising, given the history of Lega Nord and the parties that merged to form it in 1991. There used to be a substantial Padanian Nationalist wing of the party, now since reduced to but a handful of Deputies. However, the League still embraces regionalism and federalism (for rather obvious reasons).

Any class divide is rather inconsequential. It’s tiresome to hear the same argument over and over again.

The analysis is OK, but not conclusive. It could be true that both Lega Nord and M5S represent the same type of voter in different regions versus less-popular, nationwide minority parties supported by the higher-income people. This seems to describe PD quite well and FI reasonably well.

[All Along The Watchtower]

How is this ethnic cleansing if they're only targeting non-citizens and leaving Roma who are citizens?

This isn't Stormfront (I hope?).

[Silent Hunter]

How is this ethnic cleansing if they're only targeting non-citizens and leaving Roma who are citizens?

EU free movement is less 'free' than many people realise; there are restrictions on it that most states never actually bother to enforce.

Namely, freedom of movement is basically for the purposes of work. You can move for other reasons, but the receiving state is entitled to deport you on grounds of public security, for example if you get a criminal conviction. They can also bar your entry if you're, say, an extremist. Also, if you're deemed to be an unreasonable burden on the public purse, they can toss you out as well.

More here

Now, communities like the Roma and the Pavee (Irish Travellers) are seen by many as a public nuisance, engaging in drunken mass fights, pickpocketing, setting up camps on public land and over-the-top weddings of kids barely over legal age.  When they're not being fetishised, that is.

So, they could be deported back to Romania or whichever country they hold citizenship of, but they're not going to be welcome there either. And there would be considerable public support for it.

Anyway, there are probably plenty of other 'drains on society' that could be deported, but you don't see them being targeted.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Roma people always were among favorite beating boys for various European governments, not just right-wing ones.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

The guy is basically admitting he'd love to kick out ALL Roma if he only could. It's beyond alarming.

[ingemann]

The guy is basically admitting he'd love to kick out ALL Roma if he only could. It's beyond alarming.

Meh, everyone want to kick the Roma out, at least the countries with Roma in them, the only unusual about this is just that the guy doesn't care enough to use dog whistling. Travelling people are so romantic until you have to deal with them.

[Famous Mortimer]

I've never met a Roma person in real life (actually that's not true, I have one Roma friend whose parents immigrated from Romania and he hates his people) but I've had the same funny exchange about Roma people 4 or 5 times with different leftist Europeans.

Whenever some leftist European brings up American mistreatment of Blacks, I usually bring up European treatment of Roma just to see what they say. No matter how left-wing they are, they assure me "no, that's different, you don't understand" and then explain to me how Roma are tiny percentage of the population but commit huge amounts of crime, how they don't send their kids to school, how the state gives them free housing but they turn it to crap by refusing to take care of it, etc.

[ingemann]

I've never met a Roma person in real life (actually that's not true, I have one Roma friend whose parents immigrated from Romania and he hates his people) but I've had the same funny exchange about Roma people 4 or 5 times with different leftist Europeans.

Whenever some leftist European brings up American mistreatment of Blacks, I usually bring up European treatment of Roma just to see what they say. No matter how left-wing they are, they assure me "no, that's different, you don't understand" and then explain to me how Roma are tiny percentage of the population but commit huge amounts of crime, how they don't send their kids to school, how the state gives them free housing but they turn it to crap by refusing to take care of it, etc.

Yes, it's pretty interesting to see, in my childhood, we had the American view of Gypsies* (Sigøjner; the name used in the past), we also only had two small communities (Yugoslavian immigrants) of them**. Then people bean to visit the former East Block countries, and they developed a similar view of them as the local East Europeans had, but there was still a lot of people, who didn't visit East Europe (which was mostly a travel destination for the working class and the lower middle class, Prague being the exception), but after the East expansion and the free movement of labour was extended to East Europe, we saw a collective shift in attitude toward Romani (in fact it was why we changed to use Roma instead of Sigøjner, as the other name had suddenly become tained) toward a similar attitude as East Europeans.

It should be said that some of this are also caused by the fact that Romani identity are very much clan and family based, so they have a weaker national identity, so Romani who do well in more respectful job (here I mean white collar) and visual look like their majority neighbours often hide their Romani identity, which means that successful Romani simply begins to identify themselves as non-Romani, which ironic creates a greater focus on the Romani in less respectful jobs.

*That they was oh so romantic and a free people etc.

**While you can find description of a native Gypsy population in Denmark on wikipedia, this group doesn't exist, the traditional travelling people in Denmark wasn't related to Romani , but was split in two population, one Danish and another Low German.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Whenever some leftist European brings up American mistreatment of Blacks, I usually bring up European treatment of Roma just to see what they say. No matter how left-wing they are, they assure me "no, that's different, you don't understand" and then explain to me how Roma are tiny percentage of the population but commit huge amounts of crime, how they don't send their kids to school, how the state gives them free housing but they turn it to crap by refusing to take care of it, etc.

I'm a European leftist and I deplore such types.

[Famous Mortimer]

I've never met a Roma person in real life (actually that's not true, I have one Roma friend whose parents immigrated from Romania and he hates his people) but I've had the same funny exchange about Roma people 4 or 5 times with different leftist Europeans.

Whenever some leftist European brings up American mistreatment of Blacks, I usually bring up European treatment of Roma just to see what they say. No matter how left-wing they are, they assure me "no, that's different, you don't understand" and then explain to me how Roma are tiny percentage of the population but commit huge amounts of crime, how they don't send their kids to school, how the state gives them free housing but they turn it to crap by refusing to take care of it, etc.

Yes, it's pretty interesting to see, in my childhood, we had the American view of Gypsies* (Sigøjner; the name used in the past), we also only had two small communities (Yugoslavian immigrants) of them**. Then people bean to visit the former East Block countries, and they developed a similar view of them as the local East Europeans had, but there was still a lot of people, who didn't visit East Europe (which was mostly a travel destination for the working class and the lower middle class, Prague being the exception), but after the East expansion and the free movement of labour was extended to East Europe, we saw a collective shift in attitude toward Romani (in fact it was why we changed to use Roma instead of Sigøjner, as the other name had suddenly become tained) toward a similar attitude as East Europeans.

It should be said that some of this are also caused by the fact that Romani identity are very much clan and family based, so they have a weaker national identity, so Romani who do well in more respectful job (here I mean white collar) and visual look like their majority neighbours often hide their Romani identity, which means that successful Romani simply begins to identify themselves as non-Romani, which ironic creates a greater focus on the Romani in less respectful jobs.

*That they was oh so romantic and a free people etc.

**While you can find description of a native Gypsy population in Denmark on wikipedia, this group doesn't exist, the traditional travelling people in Denmark wasn't related to Romani , but was split in two population, one Danish and another Low German.

I've never seen any studies (and I doubt studies could be done without political meddling) but I get the impression from talking to people that the Roma community is like 99% dysfunctional and that even sympathetic governments have trouble finding positive role models to prop up as tokens.

Assimilated Roma just opting out of the identity would explain that.

My Roma friend didn't mention he was Roma until months after I'd known him and the topic of Roma came up by chance. I never would have known otherwise. He looks just like a typical person of Southern European descent.

[DavidB.]

Was in a big French city recently, where there were Roma beggars everywhere, including children harassing me at a metro station. Had had the same experience in Eastern Europe. Can't blame Salvini for wishing to send back those Roma who don't have a good reason to be in Italy (work, most importantly) and who don't hold citizenship.

[palandio]

In the 1970s, when many "guest workers" form Yugoslavia came to Germany and most of them stayed in Germany, it is estimated that up to 10% of them were from a Roma background. While on average being less succesful than other immigrant groups regarding work and education, a lot of these Roma were quite happy to been seen as ordinary foreigners just like their Yugoslavian co-nationals and to integrate into the German society via work and school. And nowadays many of them are careful to be seen as Germans of Yugoslavian descent and not as Roma.

Even among the recent arrivals from Romania, Bulgaria, Kosovo, etc. there are many who try to make a living by working hard, e.g. in construction (often illegally, sadly).

[ingemann]

I've never met a Roma person in real life (actually that's not true, I have one Roma friend whose parents immigrated from Romania and he hates his people) but I've had the same funny exchange about Roma people 4 or 5 times with different leftist Europeans.

Whenever some leftist European brings up American mistreatment of Blacks, I usually bring up European treatment of Roma just to see what they say. No matter how left-wing they are, they assure me "no, that's different, you don't understand" and then explain to me how Roma are tiny percentage of the population but commit huge amounts of crime, how they don't send their kids to school, how the state gives them free housing but they turn it to crap by refusing to take care of it, etc.

Yes, it's pretty interesting to see, in my childhood, we had the American view of Gypsies* (Sigøjner; the name used in the past), we also only had two small communities (Yugoslavian immigrants) of them**. Then people bean to visit the former East Block countries, and they developed a similar view of them as the local East Europeans had, but there was still a lot of people, who didn't visit East Europe (which was mostly a travel destination for the working class and the lower middle class, Prague being the exception), but after the East expansion and the free movement of labour was extended to East Europe, we saw a collective shift in attitude toward Romani (in fact it was why we changed to use Roma instead of Sigøjner, as the other name had suddenly become tained) toward a similar attitude as East Europeans.

It should be said that some of this are also caused by the fact that Romani identity are very much clan and family based, so they have a weaker national identity, so Romani who do well in more respectful job (here I mean white collar) and visual look like their majority neighbours often hide their Romani identity, which means that successful Romani simply begins to identify themselves as non-Romani, which ironic creates a greater focus on the Romani in less respectful jobs.

*That they was oh so romantic and a free people etc.

**While you can find description of a native Gypsy population in Denmark on wikipedia, this group doesn't exist, the traditional travelling people in Denmark wasn't related to Romani , but was split in two population, one Danish and another Low German.

I've never seen any studies (and I doubt studies could be done without political meddling) but I get the impression from talking to people that the Roma community is like 99% dysfunctional and that even sympathetic governments have trouble finding positive role models to prop up as tokens.

Assimilated Roma just opting out of the identity would explain that.

My Roma friend didn't mention he was Roma until months after I'd known him and the topic of Roma came up by chance. I never would have known otherwise. He looks just like a typical person of Southern European descent.

It's pretty complex, first we need to deal with the fact that Roma/Romani/Gypsies are used for a lot of different groups, some which aren't Roma/Romani at all (like the Sinti), next even among Roma there's a lot of regional difference, as example the Romanian Roma was sedentary and enslaved. The whole use of Roma/Romani are pretty artificial for this reason, as Gypsies are not one people, but several some are related Indo-Aryan speakers, while other are just "native" Europeans with a somewhat similar lifestyle. But next most Romani are today sedentary.

This is important to understand because there's a lot of non-dysfunctional members of these groups, but they can't really serve as role models, as Gypsies/Romani doesn't see themselves as a people, as their identity are fundamental forced down over them by outsiders. But instead see themselves as member of a family/clan, this means that two families of Romani one criminal and one not doesn't see themselves as part of the same group, even if they share a lot of cultural elements.

This are only made worse by the fact that the favoured target of Romani criminal activity have always been other Romani, especially for the worse crimes. As they didn't have the same protection as the non-Romani people had (non-Romani victims of Romani criminal activity have the traditional way of dealing with Romani; a angry mob of villages with torches and pitchforks).
This mean that there's little trust among Romani.

But fundamental you can make one major distinction between Romani; sedentary and non-sedentary, sedentary Romani are mostly non-criminals, often in honest work and in general decent people. Non-sedentary Romani on the other hand have a hard time finding honest work, the traditional wandering craftmen and agricultural workers have in the case of the former disappeared (the Romani was often tinkers and blacksmiths) or in the later case been far more limited. So when media mention a Romani camp, it's almost people making a living through a mix of begging and petty criminality.

[Silent Hunter]

If you treat people like criminals, don't be surprised when they act like it.