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December 05, 2019, 07:26:51 pm
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  International General Discussion (Moderators: Gustaf, afleitch, Hash, Tegridy Farms)
  Should There be a Revote on Brexit?
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Poll
Question: Should Britons be able to have a revote on Brexit?
#1
Briton: Yes
 
#2
Briton: No
 
#3
Non-Briton: Yes
 
#4
Non-Briton: No
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 160

Author Topic: Should There be a Revote on Brexit?  (Read 5954 times)
Badger
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« Reply #100 on: January 24, 2019, 09:55:49 pm »

So if I understand the primary objection herein to a revote, it's that the democratic will of the voters must be observed. Therefore, if said voters want a revote to express their democratic will again, that's....bad? Huh

Sounds more like Brexiteer fanboys are afraid that their not good idea is now largely seen as not good, and if put to voters they will likewise pronounce it, not good.

Only a relatively small minority are hard-up decided against doing a revote. Voters are allowed to have buyer's remorse. It's why incumbents lose re-election. (Word is there are currently quite a few self-facepalming voters on this side of the Atlantic.)

And in this case, remember  Brexit originally won with less than 52% of the vote! It's not like that razor-thin margin grants it an absolutely insoluble mandate for life.

Yes, the point about finality and not making the referendum a periodic recurrence is valid, but that's no reason to close up shop and ignore the will of the voters having serious second thoughts, any more than it would've been to ignore the original referendum results.
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GoTfan
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« Reply #101 on: January 26, 2019, 06:27:52 am »

So if I understand the primary objection herein to a revote, it's that the democratic will of the voters must be observed. Therefore, if said voters want a revote to express their democratic will again, that's....bad? Huh

Sounds more like Brexiteer fanboys are afraid that their not good idea is now largely seen as not good, and if put to voters they will likewise pronounce it, not good.

Only a relatively small minority are hard-up decided against doing a revote. Voters are allowed to have buyer's remorse. It's why incumbents lose re-election. (Word is there are currently quite a few self-facepalming voters on this side of the Atlantic.)

And in this case, remember  Brexit originally won with less than 52% of the vote! It's not like that razor-thin margin grants it an absolutely insoluble mandate for life.

Yes, the point about finality and not making the referendum a periodic recurrence is valid, but that's no reason to close up shop and ignore the will of the voters having serious second thoughts, any more than it would've been to ignore the original referendum results.

Not a Brexit  fan myself, but how do you justify ignoring the results of a referendum?
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True Federalist
Ernest
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« Reply #102 on: January 26, 2019, 09:17:13 am »

Easy. The choice isn't the rosy optimistic one that the Leave campaign promised at the time. At minimum, there should be a referendum on whether to accept May's deal or leave without a deal.
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rc18
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« Reply #103 on: January 26, 2019, 01:04:57 pm »
« Edited: January 28, 2019, 10:41:37 pm by rc18 »

So if I understand the primary objection herein to a revote, it's that the democratic will of the voters must be observed. Therefore, if said voters want a revote to express their democratic will again, that's....bad? Huh
Voting =/= democracy, it's merely a process.

If you keep people voting until they get the "right" answer then it is not the demos that has the power, it is the political oligarchy.  That's the behaviour of a banana republic, or indeed the EU. The outcome of a vote needs to be respected before any new vote.  Once we leave if people want to campaign to rejoin then no ones stopping them.

Remember the reason there isn't a referendum every year on Scotland's independence is because they were told the last time it was a once-in-a-lifetime vote.  In fact in a multi-million pound leaflet for the EU referendum the government promised this one was a once-in-a-lifetime vote.

Sounds more like Brexiteer fanboys are afraid that their not good idea is now largely seen as not good, and if put to voters they will likewise pronounce it, not good.

Leave would likely win any second referendum if it were an option.  Nothing in the intervening years has changed the fundamentals, and despite the wailing on the internet the reality is very little has materially changed for the worse since the referendum.  Project Fear has been a bit of a busted flush. Remainers have always been split between a core of true-believers and a much larger proportion who never liked the EU and voted to remain only for economic reasons but think the referendum should be respected.

It isn't just leavers who think that, plenty of remain political figures think a 2nd referendum is a bad idea;

https://twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/1086054251988541440

I don't fear losing a referendum, it would just set a very bad precedent in confirming people's vote doesn't matter because they will just be forced to revote.  What I do fear is a 2nd referendum would be absolutely dreadful, the last one was god-awful enough and the public mood would sour very quickly in a second.  It really would tear society apart.

Only a relatively small minority are hard-up decided against doing a revote.

I'm sorry to break it to you but internet boards like this do not in any way, shape or form reflect public opinion.

E.g.
https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Voting-18thJan19_pv-only-BPC.pdf

Pursue a ‘no deal’ brexit at 28% is the highest of all options compared to just 24% of the public wanting a revote.  And the vast majority of that 24% voted remain in the referendum. So no, there really is no hankering among the British public for a divisive 2nd referendum.
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rc18
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« Reply #104 on: January 26, 2019, 01:18:00 pm »
« Edited: January 27, 2019, 08:57:51 am by rc18 »

Easy. The choice isn't the rosy optimistic one that the Leave campaign promised at the time.

What has changed?

Besides, we did not vote for the Leave campaign or the Remain campaign, we voted to Leave or Remain. Literally nothing the Remain campaign have predicted has come true either, so what?

At minimum, there should be a referendum on whether to accept May's deal or leave without a deal.

Those campaigning for a 2nd referendum are doing so to remain, so there wouldn't be a question where remain wasn't an option. In fact there probably wouldn't be an option that was seriously leaving! Btw the campaign for a 2nd referendum seems to have fallen apart in the last few days anyway e.g.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/25/second-referendum-off-table-remain-mps-drop-peoples-vote-plans-now-8389290/
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/25/corbyn-ally-ian-lavery-dents-labour-hopes-of-push-for-second-referendum
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Smiling John
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« Reply #105 on: January 29, 2019, 06:18:15 pm »

It's unbelievable to me that people support this. So the government doesn't like how people voted-- now they can just hold the vote again, and again, and again, waiting for voters to get frustrated and fatigued, until they finally get the result they want? What an Orwellian approach to democracy.
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Justice Blair
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« Reply #106 on: January 29, 2019, 06:26:38 pm »

We're going to have food shortages in the worlds 6th biggest economy if we crash out without a deal- please do not talk about project fear. The supermarket CEOs told MPs we would have food shortages.

Everything else should pale in comparison.
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Tintrlvr
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« Reply #107 on: January 29, 2019, 06:50:41 pm »

So if I understand the primary objection herein to a revote, it's that the democratic will of the voters must be observed. Therefore, if said voters want a revote to express their democratic will again, that's....bad? Huh

Sounds more like Brexiteer fanboys are afraid that their not good idea is now largely seen as not good, and if put to voters they will likewise pronounce it, not good.

Only a relatively small minority are hard-up decided against doing a revote. Voters are allowed to have buyer's remorse. It's why incumbents lose re-election. (Word is there are currently quite a few self-facepalming voters on this side of the Atlantic.)

And in this case, remember  Brexit originally won with less than 52% of the vote! It's not like that razor-thin margin grants it an absolutely insoluble mandate for life.

Yes, the point about finality and not making the referendum a periodic recurrence is valid, but that's no reason to close up shop and ignore the will of the voters having serious second thoughts, any more than it would've been to ignore the original referendum results.

Not a Brexit  fan myself, but how do you justify ignoring the results of a referendum?

If it's contradicted by the results of another, later referendum, surely the second referendum, carried on more recently and inevitably with more information, is more democratically valuable than the earlier referendum?

Plus, referendums are dumb anyway. The people shouldn't be voting on issues, they should be electing representatives to do that for them. Just because David Cameron decided to try to duck responsibility for EU membership by holding a referendum shouldn't mean Parliament isn't responsible for determining policy. If voters don't like Parliament, they can vote them out at the next election.
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Ye Olde Europe
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« Reply #108 on: January 30, 2019, 06:27:42 am »

Voted yes, because the executive and the legislative branch in the UK seems to have become paralyzed and unable to finde any viable solution by themselves. Or at very least there should be a snap election, although I'm unsure whether this would change anything in a significant manner.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #109 on: February 02, 2019, 12:41:30 pm »

Only after they have exited the EU in one way or the other ...

I'm against the principle of voting until there's the "correct" outcome in the eyes of a group that favours that outcome.

The people of the UK have made a (horrible, IMO) choice and now they have to live with the (ugly) consequences.
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Gass3268
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« Reply #110 on: February 07, 2019, 10:34:50 am »

Best news about Brexit is that it is making the idea of exiting the EU for other countries sound crazy:

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Grand Mufti of Northern Virginia
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« Reply #111 on: February 07, 2019, 02:38:23 pm »

Best news about Brexit is that it is making the idea of exiting the EU for other countries sound crazy:



Which seems to have been the objective of the EU negotiating with Britain over Brexit -to deter anyone else from going through the same process. 
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Stranger in a strange land
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« Reply #112 on: February 07, 2019, 03:34:53 pm »

It's unbelievable to me that people support this. So the government doesn't like how people voted-- now they can just hold the vote again, and again, and again, waiting for voters to get frustrated and fatigued, until they finally get the result they want? What an Orwellian approach to democracy.

52% voting to leave in a non-binding referendum - having no idea what the final divorce arrangement would look like - should not be held as the inviolable will of the people for all time. Times and circumstances change, which is why regular, recurring elections are essential to any healthy functioning democracy, and a threshold higher than a simple majority should generally be required for popular referendums.
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True Federalist
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« Reply #113 on: February 07, 2019, 07:49:14 pm »


Which seems to have been the objective of the EU negotiating with Britain over Brexit -to deter anyone else from going through the same process. 

Perhaps, but they've also made it damn certain that no further countries will want to join the EU without a prenup specifying what happens if there is a divorce.
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Stranger in a strange land
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« Reply #114 on: February 08, 2019, 04:06:52 pm »


Which seems to have been the objective of the EU negotiating with Britain over Brexit -to deter anyone else from going through the same process. 

Perhaps, but they've also made it damn certain that no further countries will want to join the EU without a prenup specifying what happens if there is a divorce.

Which doesn't seem like it would be such a bad thing... it certainly would have avoided a lot of problems if such a prenup between the UK and the EU had been in place. However, I can't really see who else would join the EU at this point: Turkey is obviously never going to happen and both sides have lost interest, Ukraine isn't going to happen either, nor is Russia (lol). Norway and Switzerland both have their own reasons why they won't join. Who else is there?
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Grand Mufti of Northern Virginia
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« Reply #115 on: February 08, 2019, 04:28:04 pm »


Which seems to have been the objective of the EU negotiating with Britain over Brexit -to deter anyone else from going through the same process. 

Perhaps, but they've also made it damn certain that no further countries will want to join the EU without a prenup specifying what happens if there is a divorce.

Which doesn't seem like it would be such a bad thing... it certainly would have avoided a lot of problems if such a prenup between the UK and the EU had been in place. However, I can't really see who else would join the EU at this point: Turkey is obviously never going to happen and both sides have lost interest, Ukraine isn't going to happen either, nor is Russia (lol). Norway and Switzerland both have their own reasons why they won't join. Who else is there?

The remaining states of the former Yugoslavia who wish to follow the trail blazed by Slovenia and Croatia, most prominently Serbia and Montenegro. 
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Flyersfan232
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« Reply #116 on: February 14, 2019, 11:21:50 pm »

No, they should do the most soft Brexit possible. Cancelling the referendum result altogether would be wrong.

Hard Brexit is what was sold by the Leave camp, with the exception of a few idealists like Daniel Hannan and careerists like Johnson. It should be a hard Brexit. And the EU will deserve the consequences too as its as much a failure of our system as a general culture of ignorance about the EU institutions in the UK.
The people didn't vote for Hard Brexit - they just voted for a vague concept of Brexit. The most sensible option in that spectrum is the one Parliament ought to pick.
So if they go with a hard brexit case over
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