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  North Carolina GOP (The Gift That Keeps On Giving): NCGOP Chair Indicted
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Author Topic: North Carolina GOP (The Gift That Keeps On Giving): NCGOP Chair Indicted  (Read 20649 times)
Oryxslayer
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« Reply #175 on: July 15, 2019, 05:01:06 pm »
« edited: July 15, 2019, 06:44:47 pm by Oryxslayer »

Laughs. Lived in North Carolina all my life up until 2012. Democrats ran the state continuously for more or less 130 years essentially unchallenged.
This sounds a lot like the zany claim that "Democrats were the party of slavery". Yes, in the 1860s. That was a long time ago.

Static parties is false yes, but party flip theory is also bullcrap. Especially in a state like NC. You can make a case that in some states, Segregationists went from being Democrats to Republicans over night like in say South Carolina, but not here.

North Carolina is a completely different kettle of fish. NC for one was a border state and one of the last to secede, it arguably only seceded because VA seceded and it was surrounded by secessionist territory. After the war, unlike the Deep South where Democrats would routinely get 80% or 90% of the vote, NC was much closer. The unionist mountain counties of the west voted Republican and many of the surrounding areas had much softer Democratic margins, similar to the piedmont regions of VA and other places where 50% margins for the GOP interchanged with 50% margins for the Democrats. The only solid part of NC was Eastern NC.

Yes there were two groups that did flip, African Americans gained the right to vote and became Democrats and the Jessecrats (led by Jesse Helms) flipped the Piedmont region to being solid Republican from being tied. Republicans also made gains in Charlotte and Raleigh metros creating the East West divide that defined the state's politics on the state level as late as the 2000s. But in the rest of the state and in terms of the Democratic establishment, their was no massive flip of parties or anything and the fact that the Republicans couldn't take and hold the legislature until 2010 is proof of that. It took the New Deal Democrats dying off to flip the state legislature.

Democrats very slowly declined in the rural areas and as state boiler said, the NC Democrats did what they had to do to cling to power. They saw what happened in 1964 and other elections where Goldwater caused GOP slates to win because of straight ticket voting. So they created the ballot he talked about which meant that people could vote Nixon, Reagan, Bush and still vote straight Democratic down ballot. This was was how Bush won NC by double digits and at the same time Easley won by almost the same margin. They resorted to gerrymandering, using black voters to prop up flailing white Democratic districts, at the expense of reducing minority representation in the state legislature and Congress. They used corruption on an extensive level to maintain power.

And yes Democrats had it out for vocational education as state boiler said. There was this sense that Democrats were beholden to the big three Universities and that if you weren't planning to go to a college they didn't give a crap about you. In the 2000s, Republicans were actually seen as the more reasonable ones on education. That didn't change until the budget cuts of the early 2010s pushed by the newly GOP state legislature.

If that tit for tat rule applied, can you imagine what the cheating, lying, bribing GOP would deserve next time the Dems take over? That alone should give you pause before defending the Dowlesses of the world.

That is already happening. The current excess of the GOP is motivated by a desire to get back at the Dems for their treatment of the GOP For 100 years. And once the Democrats return to power they will indeed do the same stuff they did before. There are no good guys in this state.

That is why my votes are strategic. You cannot trust either side to have complete control of this state.

I agree with you, up to a point though. I think the part you missed, in part because it is kinda going under the rader, is the transformation of the southern democratic parties. With the advent of race-line voting with Obama, and then the GOP gerrymanders of the 2010s, the Southern Democrats are dead. Those people who worshipped the ideology of power unquestioningly were replaced by caucuses forced to be majority black with hyper-liberal College seat dems and other minorities as supplemental. This cataclysmic event arguably brought southern democratic parties into line with the rest of the national democrats. Like, look at 2018. The only 'southern dem' who got on a significant major ticket were Bresden and Nelson, and that was because one lacked competition and the other was an incumbent. You had Abrams and Gillum, not Crist and Carter. And even as the nation gave the dems a big wave, rural southern white dems still lost their state legislative seats that they had somehow held in 2014. The places where these parties are growing similarly reflect this policy changes - they are all areas being fed by non-southerns migrating south like Atlanta, the Triangle, NOVA, and all the Texas cities.

I know you said that it feels like the criminal suddenly finding god..but well they kinda have if we look to what the VA dems are doing. And its because their repentance moment was the equivalent of losing an arm and a leg.

I didn't say that, State boiler did.

Also are you implying that progressive and minority based state Democratic parties don't engage in corruption, gerrymandering etc?

Nope. In fact AA's in safe districts I think engage in corruption more, see Corrine Brown, Gillium, Chakka Fattah, and many others because they feel safe. No, what I am saying the culture and fundamental bedrock that shapes the party has shifted.

This would be easier to explain with texts like Edward Gibson's 2012 Boundary Control, that explores how sub-national authoritarianism can survive and propagate even in healthy liberal democracies. But the short summery is that once Jim Crow came into place, the democratic party of the solid south took hold and ruled the states uncontested. One can draw a straight line from Jim Crow to Civil Rights to 1994 to 2010. When rivals did appear in these states they were drawn away in gerrymandering, or powers were stripped from the offices they held to limit 'damage,' or a favorable local press kept everyone in line. Even as the coalitions changed, the people in power did not, in part because there were southern dynasties, in part because they were the only people who had ever controlled the states for the democrats. These people were raised in the culture of the Southern Authoritarianism, and their only goal in politics was to maintain power. even as ideology changed, this bedrock always remained.

Then in 2010, everything changed. Well, everything had already changed in 2008 with the election of Obama, but the decades long decline had paid off. Voter voters who had been efficiently governed by southern authoritarians were dead or in Florida, and people like us were around who only remembered the decline and the consistent attempts to cling to power, not the goodwill that is brought during the heyday of authoritarian leaders. There was the migration of voters who were loyal to republicans, there was racist undercurrents, there was the classist undercurrents, there was suburban expansion in exurbs, and much much more. In general, the bottom fell out from the southern dems. That authoritarian class? Gone, or relegated to the decaying minority of the party.

What was left of the southern Democratic parties was the African American caucus, once a minority just like the republican shoved aside by the white democrats. And of course these caucuses were larger then ever, thanks to GOP gerrymandering both based on parties and to eliminate every white dem from their legislature. You had the liberal whites left who had never been part of the southern democratic class, they were always big-city or university based. And you had assorted other minorities like Hispanics in Texas or Vietnamese in Louisiana who were in a similar boat like the African Americans. Even though all of these groups had held power alongside the Authoritarian southern democrats during the decline, they never were in control, or even close to the true levers of power. Always the Southern Dems, always the White Authoritarians.

And so in effect, its a whole new generation now. The loss of the southern dems have sent Southern Parties into the wildnerness and the ideologies that they have come back resemble the liberal (small l) ones held by northernern and western and every other party in the united states. Its a type of people who look at the Georgia legislature and are happy that its almost entirely minority. Its a type of people who have moved to the region from areas without an authoritarian legacy. Sure, these people want power, thats the goal of all parties. But they don't see power as the be all end all goal. They are happy to trade the majority and minority, as long as the other party plays just as fair. Just like every other party, policy, ideology, and Identity now play roles. Its why southern democratic parties today are pursuing platforms, reforms, and campaigning on the spirit of the national platform, rather then going their own way in a vain quest for power.

Now, Northerners aren't exempt from this phenomenon. In fact, Illinois is developing into a one party local-authoritarian system with Madigan as its king, but that is a topic for another thread.
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voice_of_resistance
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« Reply #176 on: July 15, 2019, 05:33:40 pm »

Laughs. Lived in North Carolina all my life up until 2012. Democrats ran the state continuously for more or less 130 years essentially unchallenged.
This sounds a lot like the zany claim that "Democrats were the party of slavery". Yes, in the 1860s. That was a long time ago.

The GOP has not realised that in today's world, politics is about much more than money. It undergirds every aspect of ours lives, from family to consumption to sexuality. Attacking the process of fair elections is denying the right to a fair society, which is the core belief in the US as a country. The anger will never subside.


That there were shocking shenanigans in the 1950s in North Carolina, a time of white male authority when a large chunk of the population was disenfranchised, is immaterial to today's world and does not justify anyone's actions.

The actions I'm describing were from the 1990s and 2000s where the Democrats dominated affairs on a state level. I've not even touched the unique version of straight ticket voting the state at least used to have, not sure if they still do, that the Democrats pushed through (you can vote straight ticket for everything but president, that way if you hated the national Democratic Party as a lot of N.C. Democrats at least used to, you could vote R for president and D for everything else), or how white Democrat vs. black Democrat politics work in smaller voting districts (e.g. municipal level). This wasn't the 1950s, this was the 2000s.

North Carolina Democrats raising hell about the Republican actions in the state is an alcoholic suddenly finding religion and is in favor of throwing the book at anyone that has a sip of wine. I was a resident of the state of North Carolina for 30 years of my life, lived in Beaufort, New Bern, Havelock, Raleigh during my time in college, Rocky Mount, took classes in North Carolina history, was actually awake for them, and you're a resident of Ireland per your avatar. Unless you're lying about where you're from, I think I know more about the state politically than you, with all due respect.

State Democrats suddenly throwing a fit about gerrymandering, dear God, if there was ever a clearer case of the pot calling the kettle black. "Racial gerrymandering" - go look at the electoral map of eastern North Carolina over the past 30 years. The 1st and 3rd districts of the '90s were outright disasters and the guy that drew it should be locked in jail for having his only eye being toward intentionally segregating voters away from one another based on racial demographics. And you know who drew that map? A Democrat, because they controlled the State House continuously from 1899 to 2010 for all but a handful of years. Democrats can tell me they have changed when they start holding resolutions for their state party going back and censuring the actions of their corrupt members of the past. Until then, don't sit and try and tell me they're any better than the North Carolina GOP and act holier than thou. I'm not sitting here and telling you the North Carolina GOP are intelligent and saints, I'm telling you the Democrats are no better than them. They're a bunch of Bev Perdues, Easleys, and Holden Thorps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina%27s_congressional_districts#/media/File:United_States_Congressional_Districts_in_North_Carolina,_1993_%E2%80%93_1998.tif

Just looking at this 1990s CD map, how was this allowed? I know the 12th was struck down, but the 3rd and 6th districts here are definitely not contiguous. Even the racists of Jim Crow drew contiguous districts.

Water and touch point contiguity.

The 6th district has the 12th cut right through it.  You cannot full get through the 6th from North to South without crossing the 12th. Same with the 3rd and 1st districts.  With these rules, you could draw checkerboard block districts that literally skip every other house.

So was point contiguity not a requirement in NC districting back then? Like I get districts 1 and 3 touching at a single point but 6 and 12 look ridiculous.
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Oryxslayer
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« Reply #177 on: July 16, 2019, 08:56:13 am »
« Edited: July 16, 2019, 09:09:28 am by Oryxslayer »





Follow @mcpli if you want live tweets of the case's arguments each day.
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Virginia
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« Reply #178 on: July 16, 2019, 10:29:54 am »

https://twitter.com/mel_bough

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article232677422.html

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He also said that since the North Carolina constitution specifically gives redistricting power to the legislature, it shouldn’t even be up to a court to step in and dictate how redistricting should or shouldn’t work.

Right, because telling the courts they have no right whatsoever to rule on redistricting-related issues is totally a solid argument. It worked so well in Pennsylvania's case.
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Gass3268
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« Reply #179 on: July 16, 2019, 10:37:31 am »

https://twitter.com/mel_bough

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article232677422.html

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He also said that since the North Carolina constitution specifically gives redistricting power to the legislature, it shouldn’t even be up to a court to step in and dictate how redistricting should or shouldn’t work.

Right, because telling the courts they have no right whatsoever to rule on redistricting-related issues is totally a solid argument. It worked so well in Pennsylvania's case.

Haha, good luck with that NCGOP.
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Young Conservative
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« Reply #180 on: July 18, 2019, 12:27:35 pm »

Moderate suburbanite State  Rep. Holly Grange is IN for Governor. Grange backed reforms opposed by hard right to bathroom legislation and is military vet (West Point grad).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.newsobserver.com/news/business/article232823772.html
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Epaminondas
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« Reply #181 on: August 01, 2019, 03:58:13 pm »

Now that SCOTUS has leaned in and decided that gerrymandering is non-justiciable, how could the SCONC alter the map and get it to stick for 2020?
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Oryxslayer
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« Reply #182 on: August 01, 2019, 04:32:24 pm »

Now that SCOTUS has leaned in and decided that gerrymandering is non-justiciable, how could the SCONC alter the map and get it to stick for 2020?

The ruling applies to federal courts. The SCONC is using state law, so similar to the PA case, the maps will stand for 2020 if implemented. In fact the Supreme court case changed very little since they had always thrown out Non-VRA gerry cases beforehand, the two big court-ordered remaps in PA/FL this cycle came from state laws and state courts. States can do whatever they want, and in fact the Supreme's verdict stated that state insitutions or congress can legislate for gerrymandering in whatever manner they please, it just never can be a federal court issue and really never was.
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Deluded retread Vice Chair LFROMNJ
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« Reply #183 on: August 01, 2019, 04:58:12 pm »

Now that SCOTUS has leaned in and decided that gerrymandering is non-justiciable, how could the SCONC alter the map and get it to stick for 2020?

Coz its the Supreme court of North Carolina.  They just have to find some random words in the state constitution and SCOTUS won't do jack.
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Skill and Chance
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« Reply #184 on: August 01, 2019, 09:36:44 pm »

Now that SCOTUS has leaned in and decided that gerrymandering is non-justiciable, how could the SCONC alter the map and get it to stick for 2020?

The ruling applies to federal courts. The SCONC is using state law, so similar to the PA case, the maps will stand for 2020 if implemented. In fact the Supreme court case changed very little since they had always thrown out Non-VRA gerry cases beforehand, the two big court-ordered remaps in PA/FL this cycle came from state laws and state courts. States can do whatever they want, and in fact the Supreme's verdict stated that state insitutions or congress can legislate for gerrymandering in whatever manner they please, it just never can be a federal court issue and really never was.

Roberts endorsing the state commissions pretty explicitly this year was a pleasant surprise as he dissented from a 5/4 decision upholding redistricting commissions passed by referendum back in 2015.
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NoobMaster69
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« Reply #185 on: August 02, 2019, 01:27:45 pm »



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Epaminondas
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« Reply #186 on: August 03, 2019, 12:16:53 am »

Add them to the mugshots of Greg Gianforte, Colin Murray, Don Blankenship, Michael Grimm...
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voice_of_resistance
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« Reply #187 on: August 03, 2019, 01:09:21 am »

bUt ThE gOp Is ThE pArTy Of LaW aNd OrDeR!!!

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Suburban Cincinnati Soccer Moms for Beshear
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« Reply #188 on: August 03, 2019, 04:44:10 pm »





Are you sure they weren't arrested for Meth? Those are the scuzziest most disgusting looking group of rednecks I have ever seen.
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Virginia
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« Reply #189 on: August 03, 2019, 09:59:48 pm »




Are you sure they weren't arrested for Meth? Those are the scuzziest most disgusting looking group of rednecks I have ever seen.

fwiw, when the hammer started coming down and they all started talking to the press, it was mentioned that there was frequent drug use (opiates) where Dowless kept and sorted the ballots. I forget which one it was, but the woman talking said she would go in there and frequently see someone passed out from getting high all day.
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Galletito
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« Reply #190 on: August 03, 2019, 10:18:38 pm »




Are you sure they weren't arrested for Meth? Those are the scuzziest most disgusting looking group of rednecks I have ever seen.

fwiw, when the hammer started coming down and they all started talking to the press, it was mentioned that there was frequent drug use (opiates) where Dowless kept and sorted the ballots. I forget which one it was, but the woman talking said she would go in there and frequently see someone passed out from getting high all day.

I....
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Virginia
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« Reply #191 on: August 03, 2019, 10:35:49 pm »

Found it lol

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/dowless-britt-inside-north-carolina-absentee-ballot-machine

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Jessica Dowless described the scene in the small office at the intersection of two highways, where she worked on Harris’s behalf for the last two months as chaotic. One worker, she said, “was so ******g high the other day she passed out at the ******g computer.” One of the workers who collected absentee ballots from residents was a “pill head,” she said.
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GeorgiaModerate
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« Reply #192 on: August 04, 2019, 05:33:23 pm »

bUt ThE gOp Is ThE pArTy Of LaW aNd OrDeR!!!

That's why so many of them are in police stations.
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Oryxslayer
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« Reply #193 on: September 03, 2019, 03:13:05 pm »
« Edited: September 03, 2019, 03:36:41 pm by Oryxslayer »



Its here! So what will the dem court do now is the question. Perhaps they draw a bunch of competitive seats. Perhaps they will draw seats that will result in a dem majority, to force divided govt in 2020. Perhaps they just change around the AA seats in the east. Perhaps the GOP will try to claw onto their majority for 2 more years.  Who knows for now.  

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Oryxslayer
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« Reply #194 on: September 03, 2019, 03:40:51 pm »



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Gass3268
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« Reply #195 on: September 03, 2019, 03:44:27 pm »

So the referee will get to pick the maps drawn by either the defendant legislature or the plaintiffs?
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Oryxslayer
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« Reply #196 on: September 03, 2019, 04:04:38 pm »

So the referee will get to pick the maps drawn by either the defendant legislature or the plaintiffs?

Considering its the NCGOP, the court will either pick the plaintiffs or draw their own. I have no faith in the NCGOP going along with this,
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Oryxslayer
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« Reply #197 on: September 03, 2019, 04:21:01 pm »

Apparently the legislature has 2 weeks to submit a legal map, before  the courts and master seize control.
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Gass3268
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« Reply #198 on: September 03, 2019, 04:45:00 pm »

Saw a statement that the legislature is not going to appeal the decision.
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Duke of York
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« Reply #199 on: September 03, 2019, 04:49:29 pm »

Saw a statement that the legislature is not going to appeal the decision.

You mean this? https://twitter.com/NickOchsnerWBTV/status/1168998919885508608
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