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  Legislation: National Military Act of 1790 (Failed)
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Author Topic: Legislation: National Military Act of 1790 (Failed)  (Read 491 times)
Lumine
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« on: July 16, 2018, 12:33:04 pm »
« edited: July 20, 2018, 01:07:33 pm by Lumine »

National Military Act of 1790

Be it resolved,


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From the Sponsor:

Mr Speaker, our young nation is in need of a strong national defence. There are elements of various European powers would see us be brought under their thumb, and a strong defence will be needed to dissuade them from attempting to do so.

I served in the Continental Army during the Revolution, and I am certain many of us in this Assembly know of someone who served, or indeed themselves served, in either the Continental Army or Navy during said war. A national military with a unified command structure is required to ensure our nation's safety in the world.
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DKrol
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2018, 03:38:44 pm »

Mr. Speaker,

I offer an amendment to require the Senate to also consent to the removal of a Chief of Staff. We have a bicameral legislative for a reason.

I yield.
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Galaxie
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« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2018, 02:40:48 pm »

Mr. Speaker,

These United States are new -- untested in the global stage, and underdeveloped in military capacity. Lest we be torn asunder by a stronger power intent on our demise -- and the demise of our freedom -- it is absolutely imperative that we consolidate and normalize our military's functions to ensure a rapid and damaging response to any nation that wishes to challenge us.

May these United States never be caught off guard by a foreign foe. May our military be a world-class defense force that makes others think twice before firing against our freedom.

I yield.
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Not_A_Man
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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2018, 06:34:41 pm »

Mr. Speaker,

Well I do recognize the need of a Military for this United States, at this time it would be fiscally impossible to create a military without either plunging this nation further into debt, or subjecting the Citizens of this nation the scourge of Federal taxes.  It is with this in mind that I urge my fellow Deputies and Patriots to vote against this legislation, lest we unleash the beast of taxation to harm the citizens of this nation.

I wish to add a second statement on this matter before I yield however.  I believe that, after the national debt of our nation has begun to be paid off, and the nation's finances are sound and free of deficit that we should attempt to create a national military, one that can be funded without further taxation.

I yield.
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Priest of Moloch
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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2018, 07:25:24 pm »

Mr. Speaker,

I will be voting for this legislation, and urge my fellow Western delegates to do likewise. I think it prudent to establish a structure of command for our armed forces as soon as possible. I share the concerns of my Georgian colleague on matters of debt and taxation, however, and will vote against any legislation which would cause substantial funds to be invested in these forces, until such a time as our nation's finances can afford to do so.

I yield.
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GoTfan
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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2018, 08:40:03 pm »

Mr Speaker,

This military need not be a large one to begin with. 15,000 soldiers and 20,000 sailors, supplemented by the state militias, would be sufficient while our debt is being paid down. This would, of course, allow room for military expansion once our national debt is paid.

My colleagues from the Patriot and Western factions share valid concerns here; ones I took into account when drafting this legislation. I hope these concerns have been alleviated.

I yield.
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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2018, 08:43:31 pm »

Mr. Speaker,

I understand the concerns of bringing our young nation into further debts. I understand the fear of taxation. I understand why a few of my colleagues are fearful of supporting this legislation. Their concern is understandable; yet, it is not sufficient.

Mr. Speaker, I do not understand how opponents of this legislation can justify leaving our nation fragile and powerless over finances. We can debate taxation till we come light-timbered; but, to put it over our nation's safety is off the hooks.  I do not understand how one can put the security of our country in jeopardy over taxes.  Debt and taxes mean nothing when we do not have a nation.


I urge my colleagues to think of about the consequences if we do not have a strong national defence.

I yield.
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terp40hitch
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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2018, 08:57:28 pm »

Mr. Speaker,

I must go negative on this bill and urge my fellow deputies to abstain or go negative on this bill. I do believe that we have an army so we make sure that our nation is strong against our foreign enemies but I believe those should be local militias or a much smaller federal army than being proposed by this bill or wait till after we have a profit not major national debt.

Another fault of this bill is that it will end up forcing us to create a federal tax and I will never allow this government to have a federal tax. A federal tax leads to oversized governments that become oppressive and I cannot see all the progress we made over the last few years removing ourselves from an oppressive be backstepped.

Vote negative on this bill, I cannot stand aside and let this national assembly create a federal tax.

I yield
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GoTfan
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2018, 09:28:19 pm »

Mr Speaker,

If I may ask a question to the gentleman who just spoke, how do you propose that we defend our country without a national military? Or do you merely seek to ensure that our national defense is as poor and uncoordinated as possible in order to prevent your so-called "tyranny"?

I now begin to understand why so many of my comrades-in-arms during the Revolutionary War, whom I fought with, starved with and bled with loathed politicans. There are still men who fought for this country who are yet to be paid for their service. Does the gentleman propose that these men simply not be paid for their service?
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Galaxie
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2018, 10:25:13 pm »

Mr. Speaker,

I give you this scenario:

Our nation sits peacefully alone on our side of the great Atlantic, undisturbed by hostile powers.

One fateful day, a force of ill-intent lands upon our shores. They take aim at our cities, our industries, and our people.

We look to call our army to our defense. Still ill paid and undercompensated for their duties granting us our freedom, they are war-weary and unobliged to come to our defense.

Our state militias, divided by both geography and command, launch weak and disorganized counter-attacks. We lose many great men, and ultimately the war.

We cannot expect a benevolent ally to come to our aid at every confrontation we face. We cannot expect to field an army of unpaid men who put their lives on the line.

Freedom does come at a price, gentleman. That price is a Security Tax -- one which must be levied to protect our nation, and our freedom. Financial prudence is laudable, but it means nothing if we have no nation to budget.
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terp40hitch
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« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2018, 10:30:12 pm »

Mr. Speaker,

I must rise again to address the claims of Mr. Hamilton. First, Mr. Hamilton if you listened when I rose earlier I said that this nation should have an army so we are protected but it shouldn't be nearly as many as you propose because that would just continue to plunge us in debt or we could have local militias like we had during our war of independence.

Second, how dare you accuse me of not wanting to pay our war heroes. I was a brigadier general in Georgia during the war of independence and I starved alongside my men. I was not hiding in Philidelphia like some but I was on the front lines defending this country and I believe that at the very least that I deserve to not get assaulted and told that I won't help the men I stood beside as I fought the British.

I will do anything for our men who fought for our freedom but I won't do is force them to a federal tax like the one the British have and destroy our economy by having our debt be out of control.

I yield
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« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2018, 10:26:15 am »

Mr. Speaker,

As I have said before, I understand the concerns of our young nation’s piling debt. I understand the fear of our national debt climbing.  I understand it better than most; as all of you know, I  personally lent the continental army approximately 100,000,000 pounds to pay the troops who gave so much up for our nation which I am owed. I also lent hundreds of million pounds to support Revolution in every way that I could. I gave a whole navy of ships which I never asked for reimbursement. I lost 1,000 ships and gained some beaver pelts. I supplied the Continental  Army with bullets, funded almost the whole government during the war, which I never asked for reimbursement. I gave everything I had to break away from a tyrant, and I’ll be damned to let another one overtake our nation.

Mr. Speaker, I propose the following amendment:

30% of all National Debt owed to Robert Morris of Pennsylvania will be forgiven.
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Galaxie
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« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2018, 10:58:08 am »

Mr. Speaker,

The offer that stands before us from Mr. Morris is incredibly generous and a great relief for our outstanding debts. Truly, Mr. Morris has proven himself time and time again as a man who places his country first -- even over his own personal wealth and security.

One man should not have to solely finance our military. We cannot rely on Mr. Morris for the many centuries this nation is bound to survive, and we cannot bet that we will have a man with the finance or the honor of himself to bail us out at every turn.

Instead, we must all fill his shoes, and accept a small tax to support our national well-being. Mr. Morris has sacrificed much for this nation, as did the soldiers that defended it. Let us pay them a debt of gratitude by pledging a slight decrease of our revenues.

I yield.
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GoTfan
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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2018, 07:09:41 pm »

Mr Speaker,

This offer from my colleague Mr Morris shows the magnanimity of the man who financed the war out of his own pocket when Congress could not.

During the war, his privateers wreaked havoc on the Royal Navy. His money held the army together for a long time, and it is because of him that we were able to fight on when we did not get the money we required. His forgiveness of 30% of the debt to him shows that he places his nation above his personal enrichment.

I yield.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2018, 07:22:37 pm »
« Edited: July 19, 2018, 07:26:39 pm by Harry S Truman, GM »

Mr. Speaker,

The defense of our shores and the security of our country is, perhaps, the most solemn responsibility placed upon this house, save the maintenance of the liberty of the people. Our ports and harbors must be free from foreign aggressors; our frontiers must be made safe for settlement. None who, as I, have known the danger and difficulty of the first hard years of our struggle for independence may doubt the necessity of providing for our future security in the form of an army. Yet none who have endured the horrors of British occupation, in the years even before the struggle began, may anticipate with any levity of spirit the maintenance of a large standing army on these shores. All history has show such forces to be not only aggravating, but inimical, to the existence of free republican institutions—the example of Marius, Sulla, and Caesar is enough to illustrate the ill effect ambitious generals with powerful forces may exercise upon a free constitution. There is, moreover, the matter of debt and expenditure to be considered.

Mr. Speaker, I propose the following amendment:

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I vote that the amendments proposed by the gentleman from Pennsylvania and myself be passed, that the amendment proposed by the gentleman from the City of New York and Westchester be defeated, and the amended bill brought by the gentleman from Suffolk and Queens be adopted, and advise all Whigs to follow so.

I yield my time to the chair.
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YPestis25
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« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2018, 07:27:16 pm »

Mr. Speaker,

I rise in support of the amendment offered by the gentleman from Massachusetts. This amendment will ensure that not only is our republic protected in times of war, but that our liberties are protected in times of peace. Should this amendment be adopted, I will have no qualms with voting for the full act.

I yield.
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the long way home
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« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2018, 07:42:12 pm »

Mr. Speaker,

I believe the act, without the gentleman from Massachusetts's amendment, to be truly abominable. However, I do support the Amendment, and should it pass, I urge my fellow Deputies to vote for this act. Standing armies in time of peace are threats to liberty, but a national defense is important as well. This amendment strikes a fair and logical compromise.

I yield.
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terp40hitch
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« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2018, 08:06:00 pm »
« Edited: July 19, 2018, 08:10:56 pm by terp40hitch »

Mr. Speaker,

I must rise again before the vote as a new amendment has been introduced. This amendment has my full support, this will keep down the cost of the national military and doesn't include adding a federal tax which was an earlier concern on mine.

Though this amendment if passed is a massively better version of the bill than the earlier proposed bills, I still cannot vote yes on this bill. Even with the cut cost of the national army, it will still cost our nation an arm and a leg and we cannot afford that. Our debt is out of control and is impacting our economic growth. This is why I choose to abstain from the national army vote if this amendment passes but I ask all my fellow Patriots to vote the way they want. If this amendment doesn't pass then I am going negative and urging my fellow Patriots to vote negative.

I yield
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GoTfan
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« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2018, 08:09:15 pm »

Mr Speaker,

I do not accept the amendment. Politicians can theorize until the sky falls into the sea. How appropriate, considering that many of them did exactly that during the war while ignoring the pleas of General Washington, who himself remarked of the Congress; "I give it decisively as my opinion, that unless the states will content themselves with a full, & well chosen representation in Congress, & vest that body with absolute powers in all matters . . . we are attempting an impossibility, & very soon shall become (if it is not already the case) a many headed monster—a heterogenious Mass—that never will, or can, steer to the same point"
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wxtransit
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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2018, 10:08:37 pm »

Mr. Speaker,

I believe that this new amendment will keep costs significantly lower than initial estimates, and reduce the burden on a new tax and the national debt. This has eased my concerns about the bill, and for this reason I feel safe supporting a bill to introduce a strong army to defend our nation for the time being without financial burden. For this reason, I encourage all members of the Republican faction to vote Aye on the amendments save for the Tories's amendment, and to vote Aye on the amended bill.

I yield the remainder of my time.
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GoTfan
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« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2018, 02:16:18 am »

Mr Speaker,

The proposed amendment would effectively mean that we have no regular army or navy. We would continue to be reliant on a militia instead, only a national one. An army of part-time soldiers and sailors is simply not sufficient to ensure our nation's security.
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Lumine
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« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2018, 01:04:45 pm »

Debate having been closed, the Speaker called for a vote on the amendments. The Jay Amendment was resoundingly defeated, the Adams amendment passed with a healthy majority and the Morris amendment passed overwhelmingly. Thus, a final vote was called:

National Assembly Vote:

Moving into the final vote, the result was 51 in favor, 9 against, 3 abstentions.

Senate and President:

After a heated debate in the Senate the National Military Act of 1790 failed by a single vote (13-12-1).
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