Israel Passes Law Declaring Itself Nation-State of the Jewish People

[136or142]

This is what you wrote initially:
"Er, maybe because these non-Jews aren't citizens? In Eastern Jerusalem, for example, the Arabs don't have an Israeli citizenship but they can vote in the municipal elections.

Can non-citizens vote in your country?"

Without continuing this debate over whether East Jerusalem is or isn't a de-facto part of Israel, it seems clear to me you are acknowledging that depriving East Jerusalem Arabs of the right to vote in Israeli elections (short of receiving citizenship, which as they article I linked to made clear, now that these Arabs are actually starting to do that, all sorts of roadblocks are being put up to prevent them from receiving citizenship) is in no way comparable to the inability of non citizens to vote in any other country.  You yourself seem to have just argued that East Jerusalem is a unique situation.

In the raw, legal sense, it is comparable. If they aren't citizens, they won't be able to vote in Israeli state elections. As simple as that. As residents of Jerusalem, they should and can be able to vote in municipal elections.

The complex question is about granting them a citizenship, with all that entails (including free movement into Israel and the right to vote). This one is, indeed, incomparable.

So, if in reality, the Arabs (or Palestinians) and not just in East Jerusalem can not defacto receive citizenship, then defacto this is an Apartheid situation.  Or, as John Kerry put it " "If the choice is one state, Israel can either be Jewish or democratic, it cannot be both"

Or, as I wrote initially,  this is what this mostly symbolic law is the start of: an attempt by the Likud government with its coalition partners to find a way to keep the disputed territories as part of Israel (with increasing Jewish settlements) while finding de jure legal technicalities for why Arabs in the disputed territories (though maybe not in Israel Proper) can never vote in Israeli elections.

Essentially, this is the start of a process to end up with a legal framework for an apartheid state, or, to legally claim a distinction from the two possibilities that Kerry stated as some kind of phony 'third option.'

Lol what even? None of what you said makes sense, it just seems like a mash of assumptions and projections. I never implied that Palestinians will "never" be able to vote, I'm a 2SS proponent and would like them to have their own country where they can vote. Appartheid has nothing to do with it. This is a symbolic law that's meant to ruffle some nationalistic feathers so that Likud can gain support from its increasingly radical base.

I wasn't referring to anything you said, except in regards to this: "The complex question is about granting them a citizenship, with all that entails (including free movement into Israel and the right to vote). This one is, indeed, incomparable."

You seem to be clearly acknowledging here that whether Israel was sincere when it offered East Jerusalem Arabs the right to citizenship at the time, that it is now making it extremely difficult for these people to actually receive citizenship now that they have started to embrace the idea of applying for citizenship.  

If they can not de facto receive citizenship, then this is absolutely an apartheid situation.

"They have the same rights as any non-citizen in any democratic nation and they can become citizens in order to vote."

"Can they actually receive citizenship?"

"No."

You are correct the rest is speculation on my part (but I believe it's informed speculation.) Since it's about the future, it can only be speculation. However, clearly unlike you, I believe what I wrote is the ultimate aim of Likud and its coalition partners with this legislation, unless of course, the extremely remote prospects of a peace settlement resulting in a two state solution actually improves.  However, both the Arabs AND Netanyahu/Likud are doing all they can to keep these prospects as remote as possible.  The Arabs seem to be largely disparate and un-coordinated in these efforts, Netanyahu, as I have explained previously, seems to be deliberately provocative in the effort to keep the situation as it presently is.

Since this is the present situation and since this present situation seems unlikely to change for a long time, that's the basis of my reasoning.

[Former President tack50]

Now that I think about it, one of the problems with a fully democratic 1 state solution is that Israel wouldn't be majority Jewish anymore.

However, what about this? Gaza becomes independent (or joins Egypt) but the West Bank becomes part of Israel.

This would mean the following approximate demographics if my math isn't wrong

Israeli Jews: 6.6 million
Israeli non Jews: 2.3 million

West Bank Jews: 0.8 million
West Bank non Jews: 2.7 million

Total Jews: 7.4 million
Total non Jews: 5 million

So still a sizable majority of Jews (roughly 60-40). I might be doing the math wrong though.

Still think 2 states are probably the best solution though (or technically 3, I'd say Gaza should either be independent or join Egypt, non contiguous countries aren't good unless they are archipielagos IMO)

[136or142]

Now that I think about it, one of the problems with a fully democratic 1 state solution is that Israel wouldn't be majority Jewish anymore.

However, what about this? Gaza becomes independent (or joins Egypt) but the West Bank becomes part of Israel.

This would mean the following approximate demographics if my math isn't wrong

Israeli Jews: 6.6 million
Israeli non Jews: 2.3 million

West Bank Jews: 0.8 million
West Bank non Jews: 2.7 million

Total Jews: 7.4 million
Total non Jews: 5 million

So still a sizable majority of Jews (roughly 60-40). I might be doing the math wrong though.

Still think 2 states are probably the best solution though (or technically 3, I'd say Gaza should either be independent or join Egypt, non contiguous countries aren't good unless they are archipielagos IMO)

Yes, this is the mathematics that Israel has been trying to find a work around to.  It's at the core of John Kerry's quote but it's been known about for a long time before that.

There is also the Golan Heights, though since, despite what I've written here that is based on my absolute contempt for Likud and Netanyahu, I'm actually totally sympathetic to Israel, I can completely understand Israel's desire to keep complete control of the Golan Heights.

I also think the idea of Jerusalem as some kind of world city is completely impractical and that the whole city needs to be under one nation which most logically is Israel.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Now that I think about it, one of the problems with a fully democratic 1 state solution is that Israel wouldn't be majority Jewish anymore.

However, what about this? Gaza becomes independent (or joins Egypt) but the West Bank becomes part of Israel.

This would mean the following approximate demographics if my math isn't wrong

Israeli Jews: 6.6 million
Israeli non Jews: 2.3 million

West Bank Jews: 0.8 million
West Bank non Jews: 2.7 million

Total Jews: 7.4 million
Total non Jews: 5 million

So still a sizable majority of Jews (roughly 60-40). I might be doing the math wrong though.

Still think 2 states are probably the best solution though (or technically 3, I'd say Gaza should either be independent or join Egypt, non contiguous countries aren't good unless they are archipielagos IMO)

There is also the Golan Heights, though since, despite what I've written here that is based on my absolute contempt for Likud and Netanyahu, I'm actually totally sympathetic to Israel, I can completely understand Israel's desire to keep complete control of the Golan Heights.

I also think the idea of Jerusalem as some kind of world city is completely impractical and that the whole city needs to be under one nation which most logically is Israel.

Completely agreed with you here.

While I think that the "appartheid" calls are tiresome and historically inaccurate in any case, this is one of the major reasons I want a 2SS- I don't want to live in a country where we have to resort to questionable tactics to keep our majority. It's not just wrong- it's a barrel of gunpowder waiting to explode, especially if the Palestinians grow faster than the Jews (which isn't a guarantee, but still). The 7.4-5 demographics are bad and I don't expect them to substantially shift in favour of the Jews in the next decades. So in essence, we need to divorce the Palestinians. It's practically an existential need for the Jewish, Democratic State.

[DC Al Fine]

Now that I think about it, one of the problems with a fully democratic 1 state solution is that Israel wouldn't be majority Jewish anymore.

However, what about this? Gaza becomes independent (or joins Egypt) but the West Bank becomes part of Israel.

This would mean the following approximate demographics if my math isn't wrong

Israeli Jews: 6.6 million
Israeli non Jews: 2.3 million

West Bank Jews: 0.8 million
West Bank non Jews: 2.7 million

Total Jews: 7.4 million
Total non Jews: 5 million

So still a sizable majority of Jews (roughly 60-40). I might be doing the math wrong though.

Still think 2 states are probably the best solution though (or technically 3, I'd say Gaza should either be independent or join Egypt, non contiguous countries aren't good unless they are archipielagos IMO)

There is also the Golan Heights, though since, despite what I've written here that is based on my absolute contempt for Likud and Netanyahu, I'm actually totally sympathetic to Israel, I can completely understand Israel's desire to keep complete control of the Golan Heights.

I also think the idea of Jerusalem as some kind of world city is completely impractical and that the whole city needs to be under one nation which most logically is Israel.

Completely agreed with you here.

While I think that the "appartheid" calls are tiresome and historically inaccurate in any case, this is one of the major reasons I want a 2SS- I don't want to live in a country where we have to resort to questionable tactics to keep our majority. It's not just wrong- it's a barrel of gunpowder waiting to explode, especially if the Palestinians grow faster than the Jews (which isn't a guarantee, but still). The 7.4-5 demographics are bad and I don't expect them to substantially shift in favour of the Jews in the next decades. So in essence, we need to divorce the Palestinians. It's practically an existential need for the Jewish, Democratic State.

What are 7.4-5 demographics?

[RFayette]

Now that I think about it, one of the problems with a fully democratic 1 state solution is that Israel wouldn't be majority Jewish anymore.

However, what about this? Gaza becomes independent (or joins Egypt) but the West Bank becomes part of Israel.

This would mean the following approximate demographics if my math isn't wrong

Israeli Jews: 6.6 million
Israeli non Jews: 2.3 million

West Bank Jews: 0.8 million
West Bank non Jews: 2.7 million

Total Jews: 7.4 million
Total non Jews: 5 million

So still a sizable majority of Jews (roughly 60-40). I might be doing the math wrong though.

Still think 2 states are probably the best solution though (or technically 3, I'd say Gaza should either be independent or join Egypt, non contiguous countries aren't good unless they are archipielagos IMO)

There is also the Golan Heights, though since, despite what I've written here that is based on my absolute contempt for Likud and Netanyahu, I'm actually totally sympathetic to Israel, I can completely understand Israel's desire to keep complete control of the Golan Heights.

I also think the idea of Jerusalem as some kind of world city is completely impractical and that the whole city needs to be under one nation which most logically is Israel.

Completely agreed with you here.

While I think that the "appartheid" calls are tiresome and historically inaccurate in any case, this is one of the major reasons I want a 2SS- I don't want to live in a country where we have to resort to questionable tactics to keep our majority. It's not just wrong- it's a barrel of gunpowder waiting to explode, especially if the Palestinians grow faster than the Jews (which isn't a guarantee, but still). The 7.4-5 demographics are bad and I don't expect them to substantially shift in favour of the Jews in the next decades. So in essence, we need to divorce the Palestinians. It's practically an existential need for the Jewish, Democratic State.

What are 7.4-5 demographics?

I think he's referring to the 7.4 million total Jews vs. 5 million non-Jews total figures in Israel + West Bank.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

What if you have the vote for the entire Jewish diaspora to outweigh the Palestinians? (Not a serious suggestion)

[Velasco]

The path for a two state solution is dead since the days of Ariel Sharon, the man who said that Palestinians would rather have their state in Finland. Just as a reminder, the remaining Palestinian lands are splitted between the West Bank and Gaza. The West Bank is heavily affected by land grabbing, settlements and roads for the exclusive use of the Israeli army and the colonists. A viable Palestinian state is physically and economically impossible. Hence the only way left is the Single State Solution in the lands of the former Mandatory Palestine. I know this is not exactly the Zionist dream of a Jewish State in Palestine, but it's the only fair and democratic solution. In my opinion good willing, aware and concerned people within the Sate of Israel should be pushing for:
 
1) Putting an end ignominious military occupation

2) Granting citizenship rights to the population currently under military occupation.

[DavidB.]

While I think that the "appartheid" calls are tiresome and historically inaccurate in any case, this is one of the major reasons I want a 2SS- I don't want to live in a country where we have to resort to questionable tactics to keep our majority. It's not just wrong- it's a barrel of gunpowder waiting to explode, especially if the Palestinians grow faster than the Jews (which isn't a guarantee, but still). The 7.4-5 demographics are bad and I don't expect them to substantially shift in favour of the Jews in the next decades. So in essence, we need to divorce the Palestinians. It's practically an existential need for the Jewish, Democratic State.

In addition, the demographic development in Jewish Israeli society alone will already not exactly lead to an improvement of the position of those Israelis who both value freedom and, at the same time, are economically productive in a meaningful sense. In a state where Jews make up only 60% of the inhabitants in the first place, the share of non-haredi Jews will be reduced to perhaps one third of society, which will lead to a decreasingly free climate, brain drain, and a push towards theocracy -- neither of which are positive things.

[Velasco]

By the way, the law consecrating the Jewishness State is not the only new development. Recently it was passed a law limiting the access of Palestinians to Court in Israel.

 http://HTTP://www.Hertz.com/Israel's/.-1.6271237

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[136or142]

The path for a two state solution is dead since the days of Ariel Sharon, the man who said that Palestinians would rather have their state in Finland. Just as a reminder, the remaining Palestinian lands are splitted between the West Bank and Gaza. The West Bank is heavily affected by land grabbing, settlements and roads for the exclusive use of the Israeli army and the colonists. A viable Palestinian state is physically and economically impossible. Hence the only way left is the Single State Solution in the lands of the former Mandatory Palestine. I know this is not exactly the Zionist dream of a Jewish State in Palestine, but it's the only fair and democratic solution. In my opinion good willing, aware and concerned people within the Sate of Israel should be pushing for:
 
1) Putting an end ignominious military occupation

2) Granting citizenship rights to the population currently under military occupation.

I don't think it has to be dead.  I agree with what radio show host Jim Bohanan used to argue for on this.  "An agreement should be imposed on these two idiots (the Palestinians and the Jews) and it should be enforced until they both learn to live with it.  If their inability to get along threatens the security of the world, the world does not need to accept that."  (Bohanan made his statement as a conditional "if these two idiots can't learn to get along with each other..." but he argued this 20 to 30 years ago. I think it's pretty clear the two sides are even further apart now.)

In regards to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as being separate from each other, this is analogous to the separation of Pakistan and Bangladesh.  If there is no interference from Israel in either the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and the world imposes a permanent solution here, I don't see why the West Bank and the Gaza Strip can't learn to be two separate Palestinian nations.

Right now I don't think Jim Bohanan's solution is even a remote possibility, but I'd like to throw it out there to keep it alive as I think it's the only viable and practical solution, however harsh it is.

[Velasco]

Pakistan and Bangladesh parted ways. I doubt that's a good example. A Palestinian state in the fragmented West Bank and the overpopulated open-air jail called Gaza could no survive by itself.

Israeli historian Ilan Pappé said the following to a Spanish journalist:

"If Israel is not able to sign peace agreements with its neighbours, it will end like the Crusaders. We will be expelled within 50. 100 or 200 years. We are a strange body embedded in the region".

Writer David Grossman says that despite the overwhelming military power of Israel (dozens of nuclear bombs, combat aircraft, tanks) and the weakness of the people that Israel fights on the ground, in their minds Israelis are still victims. Certainly that country has a complex and singular psychology.

Don't need to remember that the State of Israel is responsible for war crimes and human rights violations. Every Israeli administration in the last two decades is more fanatic and extremist than the precedent. The only country that could force them to accept a solution is unwilling to do anything. Even Obama was unable to force Bibi to give in. It's incredible.

[136or142]

Pakistan and Bangladesh parted ways. I doubt that's a good example. A Palestinian state in the fragmented West Bank and the overpopulated open-air jail called Gaza could no survive by itself.

Israeli historian Ilan Pappé said the following to a Spanish journalist:

"If Israel is not able to sign peace agreements with its neighbours, it will end like the Crusaders. We will be expelled within 50. 100 or 200 years. We are a strange body embedded in the region".

Writer David Grossman says that despite the overwhelming military power of Israel (dozens of nuclear bombs, combat aircraft, tanks) and the weakness of the people that Israel fights on the ground, in their minds Israelis are still victims. Certainly that country has a complex and singular psychology.

Don't need to remember that the State of Israel is responsible for war crimes and human rights violations. Every Israeli administration in the last two decades is more fanatic and extremist than the precedent. The only country that could force them to accept a solution is unwilling to do anything. Even Obama was unable to force Bibi to give in. It's incredible.

If an agreement was imposed and enforced on the Palestinians and the Israelis, the situation in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip would immediately change.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

While I think that the "appartheid" calls are tiresome and historically inaccurate in any case, this is one of the major reasons I want a 2SS- I don't want to live in a country where we have to resort to questionable tactics to keep our majority. It's not just wrong- it's a barrel of gunpowder waiting to explode, especially if the Palestinians grow faster than the Jews (which isn't a guarantee, but still). The 7.4-5 demographics are bad and I don't expect them to substantially shift in favour of the Jews in the next decades. So in essence, we need to divorce the Palestinians. It's practically an existential need for the Jewish, Democratic State.

In addition, the demographic development in Jewish Israeli society alone will already not exactly lead to an improvement of the position of those Israelis who both value freedom and, at the same time, are economically productive in a meaningful sense. In a state where Jews make up only 60% of the inhabitants in the first place, the share of non-haredi Jews will be reduced to perhaps one third of society, which will lead to a decreasingly free climate, brain drain, and a push towards theocracy -- neither of which are positive things.

And yet I see increasingly less chance that future can be avoided. It's one of the two main reasons I believe that the State of Israel will eventually collapse, tho not in my lifetime, and probably not in the lifetime of anyone on this forum.

[DavidB.]

Israeli historian Ilan Pappé said the following to a Spanish journalist:

"If Israel is not able to sign peace agreements with its neighbours, it will end like the Crusaders. We will be expelled within 50. 100 or 200 years. We are a strange body embedded in the region".

Taking Ilan Pappe seriously, wow... Are you going to come up with Kevin MacDonald next? Because that's about the same level of delusional antisemitism.

Also interesting how you're apparently okay with the idea that Jews are responsible for preventing their own expulsion from the Middle East because they would be a "strange body" (fascist language much?), but foreigners get to move to Europe in unlimited numbers and it's not their, but native Europeans' responsibility that they get along. Following that analogy, surely the other peoples of the Middle East have a responsibility to be fair to Israelis too? And surely Israelis have lived there for generations now? But nah, Jews have fewer rights according to Velasco. He's not losing sleep over the potential ethnic cleansing of Jews. Duly noted.

Writer David Grossman says that despite the overwhelming military power of Israel (dozens of nuclear bombs, combat aircraft, tanks) and the weakness of the people that Israel fights on the ground, in their minds Israelis are still victims. Certainly that country has a complex and singular psychology.

It doesn't exactly take a genius to understand why Jews consider themselves victims given history. Other nations have the luxury to think history started after WW2. Not us. And the genocidal attitude of Israel's neighbors compared to the utter lack of interest in or care about our survival that outsiders have shown time and again -- in that sense, you are certainly more the rule than the exception -- mean that we take our survival seriously. We have to. Nobody else is going to do it.

Don't need to remember that the State of Israel is responsible for war crimes and human rights violations. Every Israeli administration in the last two decades is more fanatic and extremist than the precedent. The only country that could force them to accept a solution is unwilling to do anything. Even Obama was unable to force Bibi to give in. It's incredible.

More blood libel-tier nonsense. It's clear on which side you would have been in the past.

[Velasco]

I think, David, that if you care about the survival of the Israeli state in the long run, you should pay attention to the thoughts of Mr Pappé. Notice that he is an Israeli academician and not an outsider like me. It's always preferable to sign peace treaties with your neighbours to the advocacy of perennial war. Learn from own history and don't make mistakes. Stop discriminating non-Jews within your state, put an end to the occupation, forget Judea and Samaria and look for better arrangements with the surrounding countries.

[DavidB.]

Love it when outsiders who have made it abundantly clear that they do not have the best interests for Israel and the Jewish people at heart suddenly start providing unsolicited advise -- particularly when doing so in a condescending manner, using the imperative mode. Once again shows that Zionism is not only just, but also necessary: we really cannot depend on people like you and their advise for our survival.

[Velasco]

Are you implying that someone here bears malice or bad faith towards Jewish people? Is that the usual straw man that equals criticism of the Israeli government with antisemitism? I hope you aren't. Thankfully not all the Jewish people is in ultranationalist stances and there are members of said community with the necessary awareness, either in Israel or abroad. For instance, the people that I quoted before.

[Zinneke]

Love it when outsiders who have made it abundantly clear that they do not have the best interests for Israel and the Jewish people at heart suddenly start providing unsolicited advise -- particularly when doing so in a condescending manner, using the imperative mode. Once again shows that Zionism is not only just, but also necessary: we really cannot depend on people like you and their advise for our survival.

How many years have you lived in Israel and served in the IDF again?

[Comrade Funk]

Love it when outsiders who have made it abundantly clear that they do not have the best interests for Israel and the Jewish people at heart suddenly start providing unsolicited advise -- particularly when doing so in a condescending manner, using the imperative mode. Once again shows that Zionism is not only just, but also necessary: we really cannot depend on people like you and their advise for our survival.

How many years have you lived in Israel and served in the IDF again?

He speaks for all Jews apparently

[Velasco]

Daniel Barenboim: "This racist new law makes me ashamed to be Israeli "

 "Israeli Arabs are being made second-class citizens. This form of apartheid violates the founding commitment to equality "

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/23/israel-racist-new-law-ashamed-apartheid-daniel-barenboim

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