Civility is overrated

[136or142]

Being civil seems to be a major requirement for this Forum and, in real life (or at least on the internet) there are 'civility police' everywhere.

I'm not saying there isn't a place for civility but there are downsides:
1.A person's civility can be easily exploited by those with less than honest intentions. I think most people realize this.  Bullies exploit civil people.

2.Less realized though except on a case by case basis, is that the person being civil is often far from being decent.  When a person is civil because they are 'nice' or 'want to avoid a fight' they are essentially lying, and I don't consider that to be behaving decently.  Is there a person here who was not told something that wasn't really true (even something as seemingly benign like 'please visit me if you ever get the chance'), responded on the basis of believing it and was later told 'You shouldn't have done that, I didn't really mean it, I was just being nice."

Personally I much prefer blunt honesty to dishonest civility.

[CatoMinor]

Blunt honesty on the internet more or less equates with self justification for being a dick without considering the opposing viewpoint or empathizing with the other person.

#CivilityNowAndForever

[136or142]

Blunt honesty on the internet more or less equates with self justification for being a dick without considering the opposing viewpoint or empathizing with the other person.

#CivilityNowAndForever

Feigning empathy to be civil is nothing but lying.

[dead0man]

There is a time and place for blunt honesty and there is a time and place for civility.  A well rounded person should be able to do both.  Somebody that is always one or the other isn't someone other people are going to want to be around.

[DC Al Fine]

Blunt honesty on the internet more or less equates with self justification for being a dick without considering the opposing viewpoint or empathizing with the other person.

#CivilityNowAndForever

Feigning empathy to be civil is nothing but lying.

Then you really ought to work on your empathy.

[136or142]

Blunt honesty on the internet more or less equates with self justification for being a dick without considering the opposing viewpoint or empathizing with the other person.

#CivilityNowAndForever

Feigning empathy to be civil is nothing but lying.

Then you really ought to work on your empathy.

Do you believe that every perceived problem every person has is deserving of empathy?

Edit to add: I'm sure you don't.  I think it's clear how I'd address a person who believes they are deserving of empathy but who really isn't. How would you deal with this situation?

For an example, since I always seem to reference old television shows with you, try this.

This situation is from an early episode of MASH.  Of course it's fiction, but the characters were fairly realistic and so were the situations.  This was early when Major Winchester replaced Major Frank Burns.  Winchester was a snob, so he went to Father Mulcahy to ask for advice on his problem with being at the MASH. It turned out that Winchester's problem in this case was that being at the MASH meant that he had to live with and even share a room with commoners.  I'm pretty sure I remember this correctly that after Father Mulcahy expressed confusion and asked for clarification that Winchester replied "I can't share a room with people who aren't my equal."

Father Mulcahy was played as a fair and generally mild person, but he also had a backbone.  In this case, even he didn't maintain 'civility' and told Winchester something like "Come back to me when you have a real problem. The people here at the 4077 (The MASH unit) aren't your equal, they're superior to you. Now go on. GET OUT!"

So, do you think Winchester deserved empathy here? If you were Mulcahy would you have honestly either feigned empathy or tried to patiently explain to him (as if he was a three year old) 'While it's true they don't have your social status, we are all equals here, except by military rank. Please try an understand that for the duration of your time here, that's how you'll have to live."

[DC Al Fine]

Blunt honesty on the internet more or less equates with self justification for being a dick without considering the opposing viewpoint or empathizing with the other person.

#CivilityNowAndForever

Feigning empathy to be civil is nothing but lying.

Then you really ought to work on your empathy.

Do you believe that every perceived problem every person has is deserving of empathy?

Edit to add: I'm sure you don't.  I think it's clear how I'd address a person who believes they are deserving of empathy but who really isn't. How would you deal with this situation?

For an example, since I always seem to reference old television shows with you, try this.

This situation is from an early episode of MASH.  Of course it's fiction, but the characters were fairly realistic and so were the situations.  This was early when Major Winchester replaced Major Frank Burns.  Winchester was a snob, so he went to Father Mulcahy to ask for advice on his problem with being at the MASH. It turned out that Winchester's problem in this case was that being at the MASH meant that he had to live with and even share a room with commoners.  I'm pretty sure I remember this correctly that after Father Mulcahy expressed confusion and asked for clarification that Winchester replied "I can't share a room with people who aren't my equal."

Father Mulcahy was played as a fair and generally mild person, but he also had a backbone.  In this case, even he didn't maintain 'civility' and told Winchester something like "Come back to me when you have a real problem. The people here at the 4077 (The MASH unit) aren't your equal, they're superior to you. Now go on. GET OUT!"

So, do you think Winchester deserved empathy here? If you were Mulcahy would you have honestly either feigned empathy or tried to patiently explain to him (as if he was a three year old) 'While it's true they don't have your social status, we are all equals here, except by military rank. Please try an understand that for the duration of your time here, that's how you'll have to live."

Um, yes.

[136or142]

Blunt honesty on the internet more or less equates with self justification for being a dick without considering the opposing viewpoint or empathizing with the other person.

#CivilityNowAndForever

Feigning empathy to be civil is nothing but lying.

Then you really ought to work on your empathy.

Do you believe that every perceived problem every person has is deserving of empathy?

Edit to add: I'm sure you don't.  I think it's clear how I'd address a person who believes they are deserving of empathy but who really isn't. How would you deal with this situation?

For an example, since I always seem to reference old television shows with you, try this.

This situation is from an early episode of MASH.  Of course it's fiction, but the characters were fairly realistic and so were the situations.  This was early when Major Winchester replaced Major Frank Burns.  Winchester was a snob, so he went to Father Mulcahy to ask for advice on his problem with being at the MASH. It turned out that Winchester's problem in this case was that being at the MASH meant that he had to live with and even share a room with commoners.  I'm pretty sure I remember this correctly that after Father Mulcahy expressed confusion and asked for clarification that Winchester replied "I can't share a room with people who aren't my equal."

Father Mulcahy was played as a fair and generally mild person, but he also had a backbone.  In this case, even he didn't maintain 'civility' and told Winchester something like "Come back to me when you have a real problem. The people here at the 4077 (The MASH unit) aren't your equal, they're superior to you. Now go on. GET OUT!"

So, do you think Winchester deserved empathy here? If you were Mulcahy would you have honestly either feigned empathy or tried to patiently explain to him (as if he was a three year old) 'While it's true they don't have your social status, we are all equals here, except by military rank. Please try an understand that for the duration of your time here, that's how you'll have to live."

Um, yes.

Do you believe that would have been more effective than telling him to get lost?  I can see some merit in that it took me about 10 minutes to come up with an alternate response other than telling him to get lost, so maybe that's just my lack of empathy for people when they are acting unreasonably, but I seriously doubt that treating him essentially as a three year old would be any more effective than telling him to get lost.

What is your purpose in remaining civil here?  Is it ultimately for your benefit  ("I'm civil to everyone!") or for his benefit?

[RFayette]

Would you rather live in a world where people disagreed civilly or one where they didn’t and instead despised their opponents?  If you would rather live in the former, perhaps empathy isn’t so ‘overrated’ after all.

[°Leprechaun]

The problem is the extreme political correctness we have today and it continues to get worse.

Say what you mean and mean what you say.

Sure, there are places to be civil and pc, like at work so you don't get fired.

PC and civility are two entirely different things. Atlas is extremely PC and extremely uncivil.

Dare to criticize religion in any way and people will be extremely uncivil, rude, and irrational to you.
The Borg is everywhere.

Religion kills and so does PC.

Also don't dare to criticize anyone other than white males.

[°Leprechaun]

By the way, as bad as 45 is he didn't invent rudeness in politics, 45 is the inevitable result of rudeness and not the other way around. It has been going on for millenia.
Diplomacy does require a certain amount of civility, of course. However, being Diplomatic does not mean not being assertive or being weak.

[°Leprechaun]

As far as empathy and compassion goes, are they the same things as pity?
Pity can certainly be toxic, especially when directed at oneself. There is a time for self-pity but it shouldn't be a bad habit.

[136or142]

Would you rather live in a world where people disagreed civilly or one where they didn’t and instead despised their opponents?  If you would rather live in the former, perhaps empathy isn’t so ‘overrated’ after all.

I think I've made it clear that I'd like to live in a world where people disagree honestly.  

And before you ask, should you ask, I absolutely believe that at times being honest is incompatible with being civil.  Maybe you're smart enough to figure out how to tell people they're behaving irrationally in a civil way, but I'm not and I don't think most people are.

[°Leprechaun]

Would you rather live in a world where people disagreed civilly or one where they didn’t and instead despised their opponents?  If you would rather live in the former, perhaps empathy isn’t so ‘overrated’ after all.

I think I've made it clear that I'd like to live in a world where people disagree honestly.  

And before you ask, should you ask, I absolutely believe that at times being honest is incompatible with being civil.  Maybe you're smart enough to figure out how to tell people they're behaving irrationally in a civil way, but I'm not and I don't think most people are.

A good example is the so called "new atheists" (there is actually nothing new about them). Criticize religion and automatically you are rude, uncivil, intolerant, and disrespectful.

You could take also use the word "logical". It is not respectful to say that a belief in the Trinity is polytheism, and yet I believe that such a statement is true, logically speaking.

[°Leprechaun]

A more important question is whether I should be respectful to people that are rude to me.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Are discussions about civility always circular?

[136or142]

Would you rather live in a world where people disagreed civilly or one where they didn’t and instead despised their opponents?  If you would rather live in the former, perhaps empathy isn’t so ‘overrated’ after all.

I think I've made it clear that I'd like to live in a world where people disagree honestly.  

And before you ask, should you ask, I absolutely believe that at times being honest is incompatible with being civil.  Maybe you're smart enough to figure out how to tell people they're behaving irrationally in a civil way, but I'm not and I don't think most people are.

A good example is the so called "new athiests" (there is actually nothing new about them). Criticize religion and automatically you are rude, uncivil, intolerant, and disrespectful.

You could take also use the word "logical". It is not respectful to say that a belief in the Trinity is polytheism, and yet I believe that such a statement is true, logically speaking.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of people who have irrational obsessions, fears, ideas, but aren't outright irrational to the point that it effects not only their lives but the lives of people around them.  Since these views are irrational, trying to address their concerns by addressing them rationally (necessary for a civil discussion) seems to be inherently pointless.

In the fictional example I used above, I don't know that Winchester was so completely filled with his irrational idea that he was superior to average people, but I think it would take a lot of effort to convince him otherwise.  It's simply easier to say "This is idiotic, you're being irrational.  Get lost."

A 'civil' person who didn't want to deal with him would have said something dishonest like "I empathize with your concerns, but there's nothing I can do to help you.  I don't make the decisions here."

[136or142]

Are discussions about civility always circular?

How so?

I think people end up with the same views they held before, as is often the case in discussions/debates, but that doesn't make them circular discussions, just that we end up answering the questions inherent in any discussion/debate with the answers we started with.

In this case, I could be convinced to change my mind if somebody could show me how acting civilly doesn't sometimes require acting dishonestly.  Otherwise, I get back to my original point: I'd rather have blunt honesty than dishonest civility.

[°Leprechaun]

By the way what does 136 or 142 mean, if anything..
you may have answered this before but if so I missed it.

edit: maybe a dumb question since I should have researched it first and so I did, probably
what  I think it means therefore...

[136or142]

By the way what does 136 or 142 mean, if anything..
you may have answered this before but if so I missed it.

edit: maybe a dumb question since I should have researched it first and so I did, probably
what  I think it means therefore...

I just noticed this, sorry.

This is where it comes from:

https://youtu.be/guOaI6_cF10?t=4m22s