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  How much do you care if posters here sincerely believe what they post?
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Author Topic: How much do you care if posters here sincerely believe what they post?  (Read 572 times)
Mr. Morden
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« on: July 26, 2018, 11:08:25 pm »

It seems like the trolling accusation is much more hotly debated here than it was about five years ago.  And I do agree that posters deliberately making provocative comments in order to rile people up ("trolling") can be annoying.  But if a poster's engaging in reasonable debate (even if you disagree with them), and not being especially provocative, then how much do you, personally, care if they sincerely believe what they're posting, as opposed to someone who just likes playing devil's advocate, or whatever?

I feel like I may be in a small minority here in that I feel quite apathetic about which posters are "real" in either their personality or expressed viewpoints.  Instead, it's the debates about who's being real that I find tedious.  If someone's making posts that I think are interesting to read for whatever reason,  that doesn't prompt me to try to stare into their soul to see if they're being real or not.  Maybe I'm alone on that score though....
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2018, 11:15:12 pm »

I've changed so dramatically since 2004 that my early posts bear no resemblance to who I am today. And 14 years from now I will probably have evolved in other ways. So whether I'm being "sincere" or not, what you see me post is just me arguing for the sake of argument.

I also try to stay "descriptive, not proscriptive" in my discussion of politics. I make some attempt to keep my feelings and advocacy out of it.
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dead0man
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2018, 11:29:37 pm »

It seems like the trolling accusation is much more hotly debated here than it was about five years ago.  And I do agree that posters deliberately making provocative comments in order to rile people up ("trolling") can be annoying.  But if a poster's engaging in reasonable debate (even if you disagree with them), and not being especially provocative, then how much do you, personally, care if they sincerely believe what they're posting, as opposed to someone who just likes playing devil's advocate, or whatever?

I feel like I may be in a small minority here in that I feel quite apathetic about which posters are "real" in either their personality or expressed viewpoints.  Instead, it's the debates about who's being real that I find tedious.  If someone's making posts that I think are interesting to read for whatever reason,  that doesn't prompt me to try to stare into their soul to see if they're being real or not.  Maybe I'm alone on that score though....

if the character is so good we can't tell, sure, fine whatever.  The problem happens when we can see the strings, at least to me.  Some of them you can see the strings on ever post, I don't understand how anybody could find that entertaining....on either end.  I suppose HillGoose thought he was "getting one over on people" or whatever, but his character had less depth than a mud puddle and it dragged down many threads.

It's like good magic vs bad magic.  Good magic is fine for most people (in small doses at least), but bad magic forces the most eager of toddlers to groan.
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Torie
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« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2018, 05:24:20 pm »
« Edited: July 27, 2018, 06:03:06 pm by Torie »

As everyone knows (or should know), I am very hostile to the trolling rap. For me it needs to be a deliberate mischaracterization of the facts that riles folks up, or taking an opinion, where by evidence close to beyond a reasonable doubt, demonstrates a poster is taking an "unreasonable" position that they don't really believe that riles up other posters resulting in acrimony. The latter almost never happens. The former happens rarely.

Which brings one to Beet (I hope he won't mind me bringing him up). Who knows if his rapid political transformation is real or not. But the old Beet and the new Beet take positions that are not obviously so absurd that someone of his intelligence and level of knowledge (high, obviously) could not possibly believe them (putting aside his transformation). So I no action all reports that levy a trolling charge against him.

Heck, I have changed my mind on some stuff (along with changing avatar colors). Am I trolling? Tongue

Oh yeah, I remember when some posters called me a "concern troll." I had no idea what that meant. I looked it up finally, and realized it was a term that Daily Kos invented, and some posters decided to weaponize it against me. I just ignored them by and large. I really didn't care whether or not they thought I was a troll, concern troll or otherwise. Why should I?

Ah, DeadO, HG was punished mostly for spam (there was one awful post in another category, but that was just part of the mix), not trolling. As a practical matter, he was never going to go down for mere trolling. See above.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2018, 11:20:04 am »

if the character is so good we can't tell, sure, fine whatever.  The problem happens when we can see the strings, at least to me.  Some of them you can see the strings on ever post, I don't understand how anybody could find that entertaining....on either end.  I suppose HillGoose thought he was "getting one over on people" or whatever, but his character had less depth than a mud puddle and it dragged down many threads.

It's like good magic vs bad magic.  Good magic is fine for most people (in small doses at least), but bad magic forces the most eager of toddlers to groan.

But I would distinguish between two different ways of "being able to tell".  Some "characters" (and I assume you'd put HillGoose in this category) just post ridiculous material.  And so, at least in my opinion, the reason for finding them tiring is that the actual content of what they post is stupid.  That's the issue, not the fact that they're "being fake".

On the other hand, you have posters who have made radical ideological shifts that many people don't believe are genuine.  Torie mentioned Beet, and he's the primary character I'm thinking of here.  In this case, the content of what he posts would barely register on people's radars if he were a new poster with an R-TX avatar.  But because of the presumably phony ideological shift, people act as if he's guilty of war crimes or something.  Whereas I just plain don't care, because it doesn't really matter to me if folks here are "real" or not.
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2018, 11:22:20 am »

I very much care about it.
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Fuzzy Bear
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2018, 11:22:48 am »

I'll take each post here on its merits.

A stopped clock is right twice a day.
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Virginiá
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2018, 12:40:06 pm »

Perceived motive matters a lot to me. Knowing someone like LimoLiberal is sitting around trying to piss people off here by pushing their buttons is not something I am willing to tolerate. I don't care if their trolling is low-effort. If a user joins Atlas and proceeds to disrespect everyone here by constantly trying to piss people off, then they shouldn't be here, period. It's not like this forum has embraced trolling and engages in it like a game. Judging by the community opinion of actual concern trolls and the frequent complaints about trolling, it seems like it is very much not wanted and not appreciated.
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dead0man
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2018, 05:37:06 pm »

if the character is so good we can't tell, sure, fine whatever.  The problem happens when we can see the strings, at least to me.  Some of them you can see the strings on ever post, I don't understand how anybody could find that entertaining....on either end.  I suppose HillGoose thought he was "getting one over on people" or whatever, but his character had less depth than a mud puddle and it dragged down many threads.

It's like good magic vs bad magic.  Good magic is fine for most people (in small doses at least), but bad magic forces the most eager of toddlers to groan.

But I would distinguish between two different ways of "being able to tell".  Some "characters" (and I assume you'd put HillGoose in this category) just post ridiculous material.  And so, at least in my opinion, the reason for finding them tiring is that the actual content of what they post is stupid.  That's the issue, not the fact that they're "being fake".

On the other hand, you have posters who have made radical ideological shifts that many people don't believe are genuine.  Torie mentioned Beet, and he's the primary character I'm thinking of here.  In this case, the content of what he posts would barely register on people's radars if he were a new poster with an R-TX avatar.  But because of the presumably phony ideological shift, people act as if he's guilty of war crimes or something.  Whereas I just plain don't care, because it doesn't really matter to me if folks here are "real" or not.

I don't have too much of problem with Beet.  I suspect it's because he's consistent and good at it...and not posting stupid sh**t in every freaking thread.

so I guess...

fake and annoying posters are bad
fake and not annoying posters are...well, not "good", but not bad either
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shua
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2018, 12:19:30 am »

Perceived motive matters a lot to me. Knowing someone like LimoLiberal is sitting around trying to piss people off here by pushing their buttons is not something I am willing to tolerate. I don't care if their trolling is low-effort. If a user joins Atlas and proceeds to disrespect everyone here by constantly trying to piss people off, then they shouldn't be here, period. It's not like this forum has embraced trolling and engages in it like a game. Judging by the community opinion of actual concern trolls and the frequent complaints about trolling, it seems like it is very much not wanted and not appreciated.


"Perceived motive" ?   Perceived by whom?
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Virginiá
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2018, 12:27:12 am »

"Perceived motive" ?   Perceived by whom?

Some users like LimoLiberal flat out admit they are screwing with people, while others like krazen don't (afaik), but if you're here long enough, or really with him, not long at all, you pick up on it pretty quickly. And sometimes you get a bonus such as seeing krazen behave completely differently when talking to fellow partisans on another forum/blog.
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∀lex
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2018, 01:01:02 am »

I don't, but fake-ideology "trolling" can often get boring very fast
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Mondale
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2018, 01:24:02 am »

I dont care because 95% of thought is unconscious and most people on here dont even know why they believe what they do. Most just repeat what their parents, community, or religion tell them what they believe and spend their whole life trying to shoehorn statistics and narratives to back it up.
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AtorBoltox
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2018, 05:48:20 pm »

Trolling is absolutely not tolerated on any high quality forum. Atlas is not such a forum due to feckless moderation
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Beef
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2018, 06:40:24 pm »

if the character is so good we can't tell, sure, fine whatever.  The problem happens when we can see the strings, at least to me.  Some of them you can see the strings on ever post, I don't understand how anybody could find that entertaining....on either end.  I suppose HillGoose thought he was "getting one over on people" or whatever, but his character had less depth than a mud puddle and it dragged down many threads.

It's like good magic vs bad magic.  Good magic is fine for most people (in small doses at least), but bad magic forces the most eager of toddlers to groan.

But I would distinguish between two different ways of "being able to tell".  Some "characters" (and I assume you'd put HillGoose in this category) just post ridiculous material.  And so, at least in my opinion, the reason for finding them tiring is that the actual content of what they post is stupid.  That's the issue, not the fact that they're "being fake".

On the other hand, you have posters who have made radical ideological shifts that many people don't believe are genuine.  Torie mentioned Beet, and he's the primary character I'm thinking of here.  In this case, the content of what he posts would barely register on people's radars if he were a new poster with an R-TX avatar.  But because of the presumably phony ideological shift, people act as if he's guilty of war crimes or something.  Whereas I just plain don't care, because it doesn't really matter to me if folks here are "real" or not.

I don't have too much of problem with Beet.  I suspect it's because he's consistent and good at it...and not posting stupid sh**t in every freaking thread.

so I guess...

fake and annoying posters are bad
fake and not annoying posters are...well, not "good", but not bad either

My main beef with beet is that I would regularly get mistaken for him over the years, despite my being here first.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2018, 07:35:52 pm »

Trolling is absolutely not tolerated on any high quality forum. Atlas is not such a forum due to feckless moderation

My question wasn't really about moderation though.  Leave what the moderators do aside for the moment, and just consider what you personally find more annoying: Posters not "being real"?  Or all of the debate / accusations against posters for being fake?  For me it's the latter, but maybe I'm weird.
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