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Author Topic: Farm Subsidies Abolition Bill  (Read 14223 times)
Emsworth
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« on: October 10, 2005, 02:01:42 pm »
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Farm Subsidies Abolition Bill

1. All farm subsidies are hereby abolished, effective from Fiscal Year 2006.
2. The Farm Subsidy Limit Act, and all other laws contradicting clause 1, are hereby repealed.


Sponsor: Sen. Ebowed
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DanielX
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2005, 02:09:25 pm »
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I wonder why I didn't propose this one myself; I was too weak with my limit act.

Pass this.
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Yankee Capitalist Scum!
Bono
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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2005, 02:34:56 pm »
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I wonder how long it will take till someone proposes an ammendment that will completely water this down.
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"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed – and hence clamorous to be led to safety – by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." – H.L. Mencken

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CheeseWhiz
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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2005, 02:42:48 pm »
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I urge all Senators to pass this.
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See all those words right above the divider right there?  Don't listen to them, they are the babblings of a moron.
Emsworth
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2005, 02:43:39 pm »
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I strongly support this bill, and urge its passage.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2005, 03:27:24 pm »
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I'll be supporting this.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2005, 04:08:21 pm »
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Woah, Woah

Wait a second here...

I'm all for slashing farm subsities, but completely getting rid of them, no.  The problem is that most of the money that we put into farm subsities just goes to the cooperate farmers, anyway.  If we take the full amount of money that goes into this, and then subtract 90% of all that which goes to corperate farms, and then rewrite the law to make it so that only family farms can get the aid, then I would be all for this proposal, and it would still save us a Hell of a lot of money.

Someone, please amend this.
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TexasGurl
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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2005, 04:14:24 pm »
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Woah, Woah

Wait a second here...

I'm all for slashing farm subsities, but completely getting rid of them, no.  The problem is that most of the money that we put into farm subsities just goes to the cooperate farmers, anyway.  If we take the full amount of money that goes into this, and then subtract 90% of all that which goes to corperate farms, and then rewrite the law to make it so that only family farms can get the aid, then I would be all for this proposal, and it would still save us a Hell of a lot of money.

Someone, please amend this.
It will not happen, they are destroying every type of federal aid. Shame
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supersoulty
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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2005, 04:27:56 pm »
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Woah, Woah

Wait a second here...

I'm all for slashing farm subsities, but completely getting rid of them, no.  The problem is that most of the money that we put into farm subsities just goes to the cooperate farmers, anyway.  If we take the full amount of money that goes into this, and then subtract 90% of all that which goes to corperate farms, and then rewrite the law to make it so that only family farms can get the aid, then I would be all for this proposal, and it would still save us a Hell of a lot of money.

Someone, please amend this.
It will not happen, they are destroying every type of federal aid. Shame

If they continue this assult on federal aid, I might be forced to take some drastic measures, and I am drawing the line with this bill.
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Bono
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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2005, 04:35:56 pm »
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Woah, Woah

Wait a second here...

I'm all for slashing farm subsities, but completely getting rid of them, no.  The problem is that most of the money that we put into farm subsities just goes to the cooperate farmers, anyway.  If we take the full amount of money that goes into this, and then subtract 90% of all that which goes to corperate farms, and then rewrite the law to make it so that only family farms can get the aid, then I would be all for this proposal, and it would still save us a Hell of a lot of money.

Someone, please amend this.
It will not happen, they are destroying every type of federal aid. Shame

If they continue this assult on federal aid, I might be forced to take some drastic measures, and I am drawing the line with this bill.

Secession. Kiss
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"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed – and hence clamorous to be led to safety – by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." – H.L. Mencken

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Emsworth
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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2005, 04:36:47 pm »
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Someone, please amend this.
Ah, just as Bono predicted. Smiley

I do not believe that the government should be subsidizing any particular market. Some people justify farm subsidies on the grounds that farming is a risky endeavor. But this is true for any enterprise. When no other entrepreneurs are being especially rewarded for their risks with subsidies, I don't see why farmers should be treated any differently. Others justify farm subsidies on the grounds that the price of food tends to fluctuate. But again, this is true of any business.

Once the government starts subsidizing farmers, it enters into a vicious cycle. Farm subsidies encourage overproduction, which leads to dumping, which leads to falling prices, which leads farmers to demand more farm subsidies.

In addition to being economically harmful, I would argue that they are also quite unfair. There is no particular reason for which the government should redistribute taxpayer money to wealthy farmers (whether "family" farmers or not).
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TexasGurl
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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2005, 04:39:52 pm »
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The siege i worked with in the Senate would have vetoed this crap,but unfortunately he has sublimated himself to the senate.
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Emsworth
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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2005, 04:41:05 pm »
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The siege i worked with in the Senate would have vetoed this crap,but unfortunately he has sublimated himself to the senate.
No offense intended, but might I ask: what is your argument in favor of the economic or social necessity of farm subsidies?
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Ebowed
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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2005, 04:47:01 pm »
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New Zealand relies on agricultural resources much more than Atlasia, and it abolished farm subsidies in 1984 without suffering any sort of agricultural downfall while saving federal money.
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TexasGurl
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« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2005, 05:09:19 pm »
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Soulty is making my argument for me just fine.
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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2005, 05:10:56 pm »
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then rewrite the law to make it so that only family farms can get the aid

How would you suggest that such an idea be worded?  What is the requirement or the definition for being a "family" farm(er)?

I might be willing to work with you here.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2005, 05:11:44 pm »
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New Zealand relies on agricultural resources much more than Atlasia, and it abolished farm subsidies in 1984 without suffering any sort of agricultural downfall while saving federal money.

Agriculture is far more prolific in, say, New Zealand than it is in Atlasia.  Because of that, you get a lot of variety in the market.  New Zealand does not have the same kind of massive conglomerates that we have here in Atlasia.  If the Agroloplies are all that is left, then there really is not much preventing an epidemic from wiping out certain agricultural populations, due to lack of variation in the species and in their locations.  Supporting smaller farms gives us, at least, some defense agains this possibility.

Also, many parts of this world depend on the agricultural products that Atlasia produces.  Unfortunatly, the subsidies have helped to create this dependence, because it does encourage farmers to grow more than what is readily sellable on the market.  However, it is something that needs to be continued, because the loss of crops that would result from the total loss of farm subsidies would cause a famine.  People, lots of people, would die.  Bottom line.  It would also increase the illegal immigration problem all over the world, as more people would move to places where food is more plentiful.

On top of that, these Walmart style farms that have result, inspite of the fact that they have been beneficial to society overall, do tend to find the cheapest possible labor, which in turn would wreck the economy of some areas of the country.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2005, 05:13:41 pm »
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then rewrite the law to make it so that only family farms can get the aid

How would you suggest that such an idea be worded?  What is the requirement or the definition for being a "family" farm(er)?

I might be willing to work with you here.

Good question.  I don't readily know.  But I am glad that I have at least got people talking about these things, because that is what we are supposed to be doing; reasoning our way around problems and taking the time to think about things rather than rushing stuff through.  Anyway, I'll think on this a bit more and see what option we have.
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A18
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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2005, 05:17:45 pm »
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This is one of the easiest ways to distort the size of government. The higher prices you pay for agricultural products because of government farm policy are not included in recorded government spending.

Because of things like farm subsidies, easily more than 50% of the nation's productive resources are under the control of the government (federal, state, and local).
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2005, 05:19:41 pm »
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This is something I do know a fair bit about and all that. Too tired right now though.
Will post some stuff tomorrow
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2005, 05:23:41 pm »
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This is something I do know a fair bit about and all that. Too tired right now though.
Will post some stuff tomorrow

I request that a Senator asks to suspend action on this bill until Al can post tomorrow.  We will consider it a Senate Hearing, of sorts.
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The Duke
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« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2005, 05:25:34 pm »
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I fully support cutting subsidies to farming, and said so in a previous spending debate on arts, but I can't say I back immediate abolition.
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Emsworth
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« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2005, 05:30:58 pm »
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It is often argued that farm subsidies help farmers. On the whole, however, I believe that they actually hurt. When the government subsidizes farmers, it encourages them to produce more than they actually should. The excess products flood the market, driving prices down. In many cases, farmers are forced to practice dumping--selling at a price that is lower than the cost of production. When prices go down, a few farmers demand even more subsidies, so that they can remain afloat. This leads to more overproduction, more dumping, a further reduction in prices, and a further demand for even more subsidies.

I think that I hardly need to remind the Senate of the grave difficulties caused by overproduction during the Great Depression.

I request that a Senator asks to suspend action on this bill until Al can post tomorrow.
I do not believe that such an action is necessary, Mr. Secretary. The bill must stay on the floor for at least three days before receiving a final vote; until then, I see no problem with allowing other Senators to post.

I fully support cutting subsidies to farming, and said so in a previous spending debate on arts, but I can't say I back immediate abolition.
I would not object to whatever transitional measures may be necessary. But I do not wish to stretch this out any longer than it needs to be. New Zealand gave a mere eight months' notice before abolishing subsidies in 1986--despite the doomsday predictions of many, agriculture improved considerably.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2005, 05:36:48 pm »
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It is often argued that farm subsidies help farmers. On the whole, however, I believe that they actually hurt. When the government subsidizes farmers, it encourages them to produce more than they actually should. The excess products flood the market, driving prices down. In many cases, farmers are forced to practice dumping--selling at a price that is lower than the cost of production. When prices go down, a few farmers demand even more subsidies, so that they can remain afloat. This leads to more overproduction, more dumping, a further reduction in prices, and a further demand for even more subsidies.


As I explained before, much of the "over-production" goes into the Third World, under those reduced prices.  Without that over production, millions of people will starve to death, before we can get farms going in other parts of the world.  If people are starving, they will try to get to places where food is more abundent.  This will cause a refugee crisis elsewhere.

Quote
I do not believe that such an action is necessary, Mr. Secretary. The bill must stay on the floor for at least three days before receiving a final vote; until then, I see no problem with allowing other Senators to post.

I realize this.  I am asking that no effort to alter the bill be made until Al testifies.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2005, 05:39:10 pm »
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I think that I hardly need to remind the Senate of the grave difficulties caused by overproduction during the Great Depression.


Deferent world, different economy.  Food could not be effectivly exported very far, back then.  Also, you attempt to allude to the Depression is a bit of a scare tactic, since the subsidies did not lead to depression and the current economy is quite different, as I said before.
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